[JMAC71]

Okay guys,
I am stumped with this one. I have a new construction home being built. It is two stories. The bottom floor will be heated and cooled with a Gibson pkg unit. (everything in one outside unit) The top floor will be cooled only with a split unit. (outside condenser with air handler in attic) The way the house is constructed the Heating and Air company feels that there will be adequate heat rising from the bottom floor to heat the upper floor. My question is this, I went out today and they have set the two outside units. One is a 2 ton pkg unit and the other is a 2 ton cooling only unit. I looked at the tag on the cooling only unit and it says to fill with R22?? This throws a flag to me as to why. Again it is all new lines and air handler (hence all new construction house) Therefore am I right in thinking that the lines and evaporator coils in the air handler should be able to use R410 since it is an all new unit? Or do they still mfg units with the smaller lines and evaporators for the R22? I prefer to use R410 so I would think all they have to do is replace the outside units with R410 units. Both of these units are brand new and I know for sure one is a R22 unit. I haven't checked the other yet. I would like to do what I can to have this changed before they are operating and contaminate my lines with the R22. I would think since the bottom unit is a Package unit that they could simply just put in a R410 unit. The same for the top floor unit however how do you know if the handler is setup for R410 or R22? It being brand new, does that say it is automatically setup for R410? Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
JMAC

[KISS]

The units are "systems". R22 units are still available and are typically cheaper and smaller than their R410A counterparts.
The inside coil, lineset diameter and outside condenser all have to match the manufacturer's specs to get the SEER value specified for the unit. Vendors will sometimes cut costs and use an aftermarket indoor coil. This might clobber SEER.

R410A operates at much higher pressures than R22.

To say again. The indoor evaporator must be R410A, The outdoor condenser must be R410A and the lineset diameters need to match what the manufacturer recommends. If the coil and outdoor units are from different manufacturer's then efficiency could suffer.

The minimum SEER available has gone up recently.

[JMAC71]

Is there a way to tell if the Evaporator coil / Air handler is actually R410 or not? Just in case the heating and air company says it is and it isn't?

Thanks

[KISS]

Air handler doesn't count.

Coil model number counts. For instance Supercoil makes aftermarket coils. Coil and outside unit should be the same brand. Air handler can be different.

[JMAC71]

Okay, thanks. I am going to check the coil model today.

Thanks,
JMAC

[JMAC71]

I have checked the entire system that was put in my new house. Both outside units plus the airhandler/evaporator coils are all R22. All three are the Gibson (Nordyne) models. First thought is to have them take it all out and have them replace it with R410. Lots of labor, which shouldn't be my problem, but there are some issues with the new house that this will cause. Mainly tearing out sheetrock and repainting of the interior walls. Getting painting to match and so on. My questions is, IF I decided to leave the R22 system in vs replacing it with the R410 system, what type of compensation in $$$$$$ do you think would be fair for allowing them to keep the R22 system in place and not having to replace it. I have been told that if the R22 unit has to be replaced after 2010 that it would be replaced with a R410 unit. When or if it is replaced with a R410 the evaporator coils would have to be replaced in the air handler and the lines would have to be flushed out. This is about a $1400 dollar job from what I am being told. So basing on that, any ideas what you guys in the field would consider fair and equatible?

Thanks,
JMAC

[KISS]

I really don't have an answer for you.

The real questions are what is the SEER rating and what is the projected energy cost/savings for your climate, SEER and projected usage. One of the best setups for heating is dual fuel heat pump. One of the best heat pump varieties is geothermal. I don't know if you can combine the two.

The reason to go R22 vs. R410A is really a pay now (R410A) or pay later (R22). So, depending on how long you anticipte staying in the house can influence your purchase decision. Eventually R22 units will not be manufactured and eventually R22 will not be manufactured. It has to come from a recycled source.

We don't know the future value of money, nor the price differential to accurately predict what might happen.

Paint can be matched.

If you just assumed that the systems would be R22, then your out of luck. R22 systems are cheaper, so that's what governs the cost.

Be wary of other hidden problem whne replacing with R410A. Pipe size and pad size come to mind. If the package units are wall mounted, they could be a different size as well. By pad size, I mean the pad that the AC sits on.

[JMAC71]

Thanks for the reply. The quote was actually for R410 system(s) to be put in, not R22. Whether the heating and air company made an honest mistake or was hoping I wouldn't notice, I don't know. If it is the latter then shame on them because I check everything out pretty thourghly. I am willing to work with them to leave the R22 system in for compensation in doing so. I know they are a cheaper, cost wise, system. After Jan 1, 2010, from what I am told you will literally have to give the R22 units away because you aren't allowed to install them anymore. I will talk to the heating and air company tomorrow and see what they are willing to do and not do. They may just say they would rather do what they were suppose to do and just replace it with R410 stuff. It is at an expense, and I understand that, as long as they know they are going to pay for it. I don't want to be a horses rearend about it however I don't think it is fair say two years down the road I am out of at $$$$$ just because of their mistake or the cause for why they did this.

Thanks, again,

JMAC

[KISS]

I think in this case you have every right to have an R410A system put in place. They may want to bargain. Then the queston becomes: What are the bargining chips.

1) difference in cost
2) Cost to evacuate and charge system x times during it's lifetime. If the company has been around for a while, you can bargain with a warranty. Say parts and labor for a 10 year period.

You essentially get what you want and they get what they want. They don't have to pay the labor and expense to rip it out. But it's an unknown cost to them.

You could even add a clause that defines a lemon and if the unit turns out to be a lemon and R410A unit will be put in for free.

Just my thoughts.

R22 is a better refrigerent.

[JMAC71]

Thanks, you have been a big help and comforting help. We are thinking alike as far as the bargaining tool. Two other heating and air companies have said the same as you about the R22. They personally feel it is better. Their only concearn for me was that after Jan 2010 the R22 system couldn't be installed or was no longer available. They howwever said the R22 refrigent is suppose to be available until 2020? If the R22 compressors were still available you could replace it, if the current one goes out. If that is the case, I don't understand why you can't just keep installing R22 complete systems. I may have misunderstood and they meant there won't be any R22 systems mfg after Jan. 2010. But if you still have them in stock you can install them. Not sure. Anyway, I will check with them tomrrow and see what their thoughts are. I do appreciate the info. Like I said, it would be nice to think they simply made a "big" mistake with this but my after thought is they were trying to get by cheaper once they had given my bid for doing the job. I have talked to my builder and the contractor and we are all agreed that we were told it would be an R410 system.

Thanks,
JMAC