[ctscooby]

I took down the ceiling fan/light combo in my garage with plans to install two receptacles to plug fluorescent lights into. The fan was controlled by two 3-way switches, and the light by two 3-way switches. I want to have the switches control the new receptacles. I was able to get one of the receptacles to work but the other one won't...

I have two cables coming from the ceiling. Each cable has a white, black and ground. So 2 whites, 2 blacks, 2 grounds. I hooked one of the cables to the one receptacle - black to hot connection, white to white connection, and the ground. It worked fine - the two switches control this receptacle (it used to be the light on the ceiling fan). I did the same thing on the other receptacle and it doesn't work at all. Any ideas?

When I took the ceiling fan down, one of the white wires (on the receptacle that currently doesn't work), wasn't hooked up to anything it was just pushed into the back of the box.

Looking for any help - maybe it's not even possible to have two receptacles hooked up like this? I can give more details if you need them.

Thanks!

[brotzmr]

Check to see if the switch is good or not compatible

[ctscooby]

The switch appears good, all four switches worked correctly before I took down the ceiling fan this afternoon. I thought maybe the receptacle was bad, so I even swapped that out - still no luck.

[ceilingfanrepair]

How was the fan wired?

It SHOULD work as you describe.

Do you have a voltmeter?

[Stratmando]

Since it had 2 pairs of three ways, you could switch both lights together or separate switching.
If you have a light bulb socket, connect to to disconnected wire and see what happens.
You could break off the tab on the receptacle, to have 2 switched outlets in both locations.

[homedoctor]

CSCOOSBY, sounds like you have two separate circuits and are trying to make them into one. It can work, you will need to re-wire in the walls or ceiling (or both) to connect all the switches together. For you (and anyone else reading this):

You'll have a black wire bringing the power into the switches as a group FIRST (coming to one switch box then to the next, then the next, etc.) then using a black wire the power goes to the lights/outlets. Then using the white wires the power returns back all the way to the first switch box (then uses the white wire that came with the incoming-black-wire to take the power back to where it came from).

To do this with one switch is easy; with more than one switch takes a little understanding. Any time you have more than one switch you will have power coming to the group on the black wire of a 14/2 (or sometimes a 12/2 - for this explanation it doesn't matter which, just that two wires come into the first switch box: one is black the other white). That first switch "chooses" either the black or the red wire of a 14/3 to send power along (or a 12/3 when a 12/2 is the incoming). The 14/3 then goes to the next switch and that switch is used to choose to receive the power from either the black or red wire and then send it on. The tricky part is when there are 3 or more switches involved - you will always have a 3-way switch at the start of the run of switches to take the one power lead in, choose which of 2 travelers (the red & black wires) to send it on, and then another switch at the other end to choose from the travelers bringing it the power and send the power on to the light (or outlet) on one out-going black wire. With 3, 4, 5, or more switches the middle ones are 4-way switches - choosing power from one traveler (the red & black leads) and passing it along on one traveler (again, red & black leads). When I say middle, I don't mean where they are on the wall. I mean how they are connected together:

(diagram was ruined in translation, I used MSPaint to make it over but even as just lines it is too big to insert here. I can 'reply' the simple diagram to you if you send an eMail request to me at "[email protected]")

In the diagram above, each switch makes a choice. When they all choose together then the power gets through to the light and then back along the white wires. If one switch chooses different from the rest then the power stops and the light gets lonely (no power). To get power to the light they can all choose black, they can all choose red, or any two can choose black and the other two choose red - as long as they work together power gets through them to the light(s) and /or outlet(s).

The 3-way switches at each end make it possible to have multiple switches, the 4-ways in the middle of the run simply make more locations possible. 3-way switches in the middle won't work 'cause they cannot choose to BOTH receive power from 2 wires and then send it along on 2 wires - that is the job of the 4-ways.

SO

You have enough locations to make it possible to use a bunch of switches, and you have the lights & outlets to be turned on-&-off; you need to connect all the switches together to control the power and then also connect all the lights/outlets together to use the power. To wire them usually requires getting into the walls and ceiling to run wires from one to another the right way. After that would be the wall repair and re-painting. Yeah, it's a lot of mess for the average homeowner and with the walls/lid opened up it takes a few days to complete the project. In the end, any project is worth what you put into it.

Does this answer your thoughts?

[Stratmando]

homedoctor, I think he has 2 sets of 3 ways.
I don't think he needs to open any Drywall?

[homedoctor]

I read it as him wanting to make the two systems one system - all switches controlling all the lights...

[homedoctor]

ctscooby, I may have mis-understood the pattern of switches and fan-light combo. Were there two switches in one location and two switches in another?. Or were there four separate switch locations?

[ctscooby]

There are four switches but all in different places. I want to leave the switches as is - so two switches will control one receptacle and the other two will control the other receptacle. I agree this should have worked. The only thing I can think of is that two of the switches drew power from the other two. There is always a hot wire in a three way switch so maybe they were powering the other two. Actually that wouldn't make sense because the light was on one breaker and the fan on another breaker.

I don't know if it helps but the receptacle that won't work has one cable coming to it with A white black and ground wires. The white one was never hooked to the fan or light. It was just pushed into the back of the box.

[homedoctor]

ctscooby, I have a better picture of what you have - is it this:

Two switches in two locations ( call 'them #1 and #2) fed power to one location on the lid (ceiling) - a fan/light combo, and they each controlled the fan (on and off). Two other switches in two different locations (call 'em #3 and #4) fed power to the same location on the lid and they each controlled the light (on and off). Am I good so far?

[Stratmando]

Every fan or light needs to have the white/neutral connected, didn't realize 3 ways for light and 3 ways for fan is at 4 separate locations, wonder why?
Many people have both at both ends, there are situations where you don't want easy access for people to adjust or change.
You could break the tab off the hot and have half for 1 3 way, and the other half of the receptacle the other 3 ways?

[homedoctor]

Stratmando, Hi! I re-read the thread and it seems that he's put two recepticles in the box where the fan used to be. Don't know yet if they were two halves of a duplex or two singles or two duplex's; do you know?

[Stratmando]

I'm thinking he wants 2 recepticles at the old fan light location. Now rereading myself, it sounds like he needs to jumper the neutral from 1 receptacle to the other, or use the unused neutral.
If only 1 plug is needed for whatever light he is going to plug into, then splitting a duplex receptacle may be all he needs to do.
(Break the jumper on receptacle and hook hot to other half of receptacle. Take care
We'll see?

[homedoctor]

Sorry, got called away & didn't sign out - kind of rude! Yeah, I guess a few questions left. But we both forgot to remind him that all ground wires need to be tied together in the entire house, so he'll need to pigtail one of the recep'ts if he does anything other than splitting a duplex. And it works to use just one neutral even with two separate circuits, but it's pretty bad practice. That second neutral should be used with it's 'hot' lead, so both jumpers need to be snapped off a split dup...

[Stratmando]

I agree if, the neutrals are from 2 different circuits/not switches, then the neutral jumper needs to be removed as well. And connect both neutrals.

[homedoctor]

I just re-read the whole thread, and it may be that the second neutral is not connected in the switch box.. Got to go make dinner for the spousal unit; she'll be home soon. Maybe later tonight we'll find out what's what...

[ctscooby]

Not sure about the technical pieces with duplexes, etc. It's a good question why the switches aren't together. The ceiling fan/light were in my garage. The light switch#1 is in the kitchen, the fan switch#1 is right outside the door leading from the kitchen into the garage. The second light switch is by the door leading from outside into the garage and the 2nd fan switch is on the other side of the garage by the overhead door.

I can give a little more detail, not sure if it will help: There is a junction box right before the cable that used to control the light (and currently the only receptacle that works correctly). I opened up the fan switches - and there are three separate cables leading into each switch - each cable has a black, white and ground.

I am not advanced with my electrical knowledge, but based on what I have read in my research -- the cable that I can't get to work - could the black wire really be a neutral, and I need to tap into the working receptacle to get the hot wire?

I wish I had taken a picture of what the wiring looked like for the ceiling fan before I took it down - I think it would have helped a lot. I can't figure out how the fan was ever connected.

[ctscooby]

This is what I want to hook up - two duplex receptacles in place of the ceiling fan/light combo.

Not sure if this link will work:

Cooper Wiring Devices at Lowe's: 15-Amp Aluminum Rated Receptacle

[homedoctor]

ctscooby, the link to the LOWE's site shows a duplex receptacle rated for aluminum wire. You prob'l'y have copper wire so be sure that you get a duplex device that's rated for copper.

If you look at the side of any duplex 'recep' you'll see that the metal behind the wire screws is one piece that has a kind of bridge that connects the two screws. Snapping off that bridge makes it into two separate recep's, so you can have two separate lights controlled by two separate switches (or teams, in the case of 3-ways) in one space!

You should always bond (connect) all of the ground wires in any box to make the grounding system in the house all one ground system. Use a green wire nut and poke one lead through enough to attach to one device, then add a 6" piece of bare wire that's the same gauge as what is already there to give you a way to connect the other device and the two ROMEX grounds all together.

If you use a split duplex (snap both bridges for your current case) then you can use a green wire nut to bond the two ROMEX grounds poking one through far enough to be screwed down on the device, eliminating the extra wire.

I'd like to know if both neutral wires are connected in the back of their respective switch boxes - could be the one not working is not. In fact, for your desired system to work, each white wire should be connected to it's outlet and all 4 switch boxes should have all white wires connected behind the switches. And you should have as many white as black in every box (ground wires, too).

Separate question: Was the fan the large kind that is usually in a living room or family room that moves air in the room, or is it the kind that is in a bathroom to pull air to the outside?