[JoeCanada76]

It is all in the approach. Somebody tries to force their religion down somebodys throat. That they are right and your wrong. That does not win anybody over. That pushes them away and keeps them farther away. You Pumpkin whether you realize that or not. You do that. So in fact you are pushing people away from God by the way you approach others. You need to be open to others beliefs, opinions, and be friend all people no matter what. That will bring you closer to God and bring others closer to God. That is what I believe.

Joe

[valinors_sorrow]

It merely means that we grant them their right to their opinions.

I understand that right is granted by the God of my understanding, its called free will. So it is simply not yours to grant, Starman. The problem with some people is how they do not respect that gift from our Creator when other people use it. The US Constitution allows for religious freedom, which was defined then and now to mean any and all beliefs or lack thereof are to be respected in all aspects of life. While it protects religious expressions of all kinds in personal and commercial life, it also wisely restricts expression of any religious views in public life (schools, governemnt, etc) since it would cause a problem selecting WHICH view (a whole other thread here too btw). It is not the atheist view being expressed there, its no view -- there is a gigantic difference.

So you see that religious intolerance is against the wishes of God and the laws of the US-- makes it kind of hard to have any compelling argument for it now, doesn't it?

If you want to make a claim that God granted free will but expected some of the overly enthusiastic people to become special-priviledged spiritual squads enforcing faith where faith is needed regardless of free will, then you haven't learned much from the lessons of Hitler. As for the people who supported him--it was because they weren't thinking it through AND they were buying into the idea of some terrible kind of "them and us" , the VERY idea overly zealous religious people often have -- by the way. Let's look closer and see how to amend that: what do you suppose counters "not thinking it through"? Free Will! And what counters that old "them and us" thinking? Understanding that all people are God's children which would require respecting all of them.

I will defend to my death your right to be Christian, Starman, even though I will likely never be. And that is because I believe in freeedom, equality, and I got the message loud and clear from my Creator about you being just like me, a human being seeking spiritual growth and I respect that. But that means I am too. And you need to afford me the same privilege.

Now if all you Christians need to start a thread to debate who you might befriend and all the other theological conflicts Christianity is rife with, feel free. But please consider acknowledging that you do so largely because you are excersizing religious tolerance within Christianity itself! LOL

[K_3]

K 3 maybe you've hit on something we should all consider. In the zeal to affirm our faiths could it be possible we are all saying the same thing. Could we be just hearing what we want and are blinded by the fact we all say the same thing over and over. I don't know but it starting to sound that way to me and its hard to even see what the controversy is all about, until some one says " no your wrong" . Just me sometimes I loose it and don't always know it.

Have to spread it around
Totally my point, in order to debate an issue, each has to listen to the words and not think they know what the person is going to say and start formulating an answer before the post has been read.

[31pumpkin]

Religious Tolerance -
Allowing people the freedom to have their own beliefs & related actions, without necessarily validating those beliefs.

"The only way one can start to reconcile the different religions is to take the god out of the religion, and reduce them to a bunch of feel good moral teachings about loving one another and "can't we all just get along" sentiments. You reconcile the religions by making them non-religious."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ephesians 2:1-7
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. And God raises us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
Unity in the Body of Christ-
Ephesians 4:3-7 - Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one(or God) God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

Thank you Lord. Anything else would be lying to myself & settling for less.

[K_3]

God is in other religions, some may not believe in Jesus, they believe in God. I am such a frim believer in my faith that I am not threatened by others who do not have the same faith, therefore I am tolerant of them. As I said before, others have come to believe as I because of my tolerance of others. Jesus walked among nonbelievers to show them the way.

[valinors_sorrow]

So much for seeing direct quotes of what I said.

And oddly enough, I agree:

Religious Tolerance -
Allowing people the freedom to have their own beliefs & related actions, without necessarily validating those beliefs.

So how did reconciling get in the mix? I only see one person proposing that and its definitely not me. I think the pendulum is being swung too far the other way now. I am not proposing a homogenized mix of all religions to be embraced by everyone! Ugh to that...

[31pumpkin]

Yes K3, I have witnessed to dozens of people. Their hearts were willing though.
Yes, that is the Great Commission also. Except, I am not hearing anyone on this forum "wanting to be shown the way" It's quite obvious. And it may be too late for certain happenings before unbelievers come to see the light.
And for those in the faith, I suggest they go back to the Bible or Church or Seminary school before they try to say some pitiful words like"pathological" to another believer. Don't be so sure that I am Morganite. Check it out thoughly about having close friends that are unbelievers. We are only "friends" to bring them to Christ. And if that is unfruitful, we are to part company. You commit a grand faux paux(and possibly a sin), Morganite, by going against the believers!

[NeedKarma]

Check it out thoughly about having close friends that are unbelievers. We are only "friends" to bring them to Christ. And if that is unfruitful, we are to part company. You commit a grand faux paux(and possibly a sin), Morganite, by going against the believers!

The good thing about this is that we can be assured that your like will stay within your own self-defined small-minded boundaries. I personally would rather befriend the likes of Rickj and Tal who feels strongly about their religious beliefs and could care less about the beliefs of other good people.

Pumpkin, realize that your strict beliefs that include needing to convert non-believers put you in a minority: those who believe that those who are not like them are somewhat lost and inferior. You can't possibly begin to understand how annoying that is to those of us who are very comfortable in their life and who dislike all the preaching and conversion attempt. It would be different if I walked into your church/synagogue/temple/etc looking for answers but you shove it down people's throat's at every turn.

[valinors_sorrow]

I still contend that religion is to spirituality what regional cooking is to food --- and its all good!

And now... I'm out of here cos' I need some lunch! :p

[31pumpkin]

So Needkarma - Does your creed entail the need to feel superior by belittling others? That's your choice. A friend is measured in other ways too. So if your belief system makes you have to be politically correct all the time, then you can keep it. You're the one who believes in the "flying spaghetti monster" And good luck with praying to him/her.
One thing I noticed where you could ponder is: You said, " You've got to keep in mind your god put you there. My god would never put me in such a perilous place". Now, do you know how unrealistic that belief is? You are going to be in a dangerous place if that is what God desires. How you make it out will have a lot to do with your faith in the one true God.
--------------------------------------------------
Now, I have to go also. Driving lessons for my 2nd daughter. This is hard in a way. Anyone with a minute- All prayers will be appreciated! Help! :confused:

[Curlyben]

Religious Tolerance -
Allowing people the freedom to have their own beliefs & related actions, without necessarily validating those beliefs.

Very true, but:

Intolerance: lack of toleration; unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect contrary opinions or beliefs, persons of different races or backgrounds, etc.

In the context of AMHD we are not asking anyone to validate anothers beliefs just respect that they differ from our own.
As this is a PRIVATE web site, you have to register to become a member and post, we expect a certain degree of lalitude from our members.
Extremist views from any stand point are neither welcomed nor encouraged.

• spreading misinformation about a group's beliefs or practices even though the inaccuracy of that information could have been easily checked and corrected;
• spreading hatred about an entire group; e.g. stating or implying that all members of a group are evil, behave immorally, commit criminal acts, etc.;
• ridiculing and belittling an entire faith group for their sincerely held beliefs and practices;
• attempting to force religious beliefs and practices on others against their will;
• restricting human rights of members of an identifiable religious group;
• devaluing other faiths as worthless or evil.

The highlighted parts I believe are the most appropriate in this context.

For further information Here's the site

I hope I have made my views clear !

[valinors_sorrow]

Sin or not, religious intolerance is definitely a basis for an infraction at AMHD. Thanks for making that crystal Ben. This has been a good topic too Joe-- thanks!

[ScottGem]

So Needkarma - Does your creed entail the need to feel superior by belittling others?

I don't see any inidcation that NK belittled you. He made some factual statements cased on what you have posted. He disagreed with the actions that we have seen on your part. But he didn't belittle you.

This illustrates anothert thing I have noticed about you. You tend to take offense very quickly. In many cases where it was neither stated or implied.

One thing I noticed where you could ponder is: You said, " You've got to keep in mind your god put you there. My god would never put me in such a perilous place". Now, do you know how unrealistic that belief is? You are going to be in a dangerous place if that is what God desires.

Let me get this straight. You believe in a god who can intervene to answer your prayers. Yet this same god doesn't control the situations he puts you into? In my opinion, to believe that, requires a suspension of logic and a degree of blind faith that comes from refusing to accept facts.

[31pumpkin]

ScottGem - I'm sorry but I really can't understand what you are describing. If it was offensive to you then I'm sorry even if I can't wrack my brain to figure it out. Also, I think you mistook the quote to be mine, not N.K's. Either way I'm not going to argue because I like quiet. Not a type A personality. Let N.Karma defend his own whatever you are referring to. Thank you!

[Starman]

I understand that right is granted by the God of my understanding, its called free will. So it is simply not yours to grant, Starman. The problem with some people is how they do not respect that gift from our Creator when other people use it. The US Constitution allows for religious freedom, which was defined then and now to mean any and all beliefs or lack thereof are to be respected in all aspects of life. While it protects religious expressions of all kinds in personal and commercial life, it also wisely restricts expression of any religious views in public life (schools, government, etc) since it would cause a problem selecting WHICH view (a whole other thread here too btw). It is not the atheist view being expressed there, its no view -- there is a gigantic difference.

So you see that religious intolerance is against the wishes of God and the laws of the US-- makes it kinda hard to have any compelling argument for it now, doesn't it?

If you want to make a claim that God granted free will but expected some of the overly enthusiastic people to become special-priviledged spiritual squads enforcing faith where faith is needed regardless of free will, then you haven't learned much from the lessons of Hitler. As for the people who supported him--it was because they weren't thinking it through AND they were buying into the idea of some terrible kind of "them and us" , the VERY idea overly zealous religious people often have -- by the way. Let's look closer and see how to amend that: what do you suppose counters "not thinking it through"? Free Will! And what counters that old "them and us" thinking? Understanding that all people are God's children which would require respecting all of them.

I will defend to my death your right to be Christian, Starman, even though I will likely never be. And that is because I believe in freedom, equality, and I got the message loud and clear from my Creator about you being just like me, a human being seeking spiritual growth and I respect that. But that means I am too. And you need to afford me the same privilege.

Now if all you Christians need to start a thread to debate who you might befriend and all the other theological conflicts Christianity is rife with, feel free. But please consider acknowledging that you do so largely because you are excersizing religious tolerance within Christianity itself! LOL

I would greatly appreciate that you please stop attributing crazy ideas to me based on snap interpretations. Do you really believe that I believe human rights find their source in me? The word "grant" is used within the context and the context clearly indicates what meaning is intended.


You say respect everyone?
Sorry but I don't respect serial killers, child molesters, rapists, murderers, and people of that sort. Neither does God require that I respect these people. Neither does God require that I be their friend and associate with them on a companionship basis. I do acknowledge that they have certain rights-of course and would never try to deprive them of such rights. That would be following their example of depriving people of property, life, happiness, good health, peace of mind, and free will. An example that is not Christian.


You speak of free will. But unrestrained free will isn't granted by any government on earth and for very good reasons. Neither did God grant it. The reason he didn't is because it leads to social chaos and pandemonium. We have freedom within the parameters of his laws and regulations and it's for our own good. It helps to
Prevent, the abuse of the weaker by the stronger and courses of action leading to self injury or self destruction due to lack of wisdom.


About claiming one thing or the other, I derive my beliefs from the Bible. So they are not MY personal claims as you seem to imply. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter. But to imply that they are merely my beliefs is a misrepresentation.

About Christiians telling others about the Good News of God's kingdom
That's an assignment that Jesus gave. It isn't meant as harassment or disrespect for anyone else's beliefs. It is merely a sharing of something valuable with others.

Also, the comparison between Hitler's insane policies and those of Christians who are teaching God's Word and trying to live by biblical principles is unjustified. People within the churches are free to leave whenever they wish. Those who are members of churches who are stricter were taught what was expected of them and voluntarily agreed to abide by the rules. No one twisted their arm or otherwise forced them into membership. So it is a totally voluntary thing. A concept totally
Alien to Hitler.



BTW

Christianity has no conflicts. People do. Neither does God consider all humans his children.
Some, based on their behavior, he views as children of the devil.
Not that this is an excuse to persecute them, so please don't jump to that conclusion. Only that he doesn't quite see things in the way you are describing them.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

KJV

[NeedKarma]

Starman,

That bible quote implies some strange stuff. If one's father was an alcoholic or a wife-beater then that bible quote seems to imply that the children of this man are doomed to be branded as such regardless of how they really are as people. This doesn't seem to have any basis in real life. It would be horrible to imagine a world where children of defective parents cannot break the cycle and become better people.

[ScottGem]

ScottGem - I'm sorry but I really can't understand what you are describing. If it was offensive to you then I'm sorry even if I can't wrack my brain to figure it out. Also, I think you mistook the quote to be mine, not N.K's. Either way I'm not going to argue b/c I like quiet. Not a type A personality. Let N.Karma defend his own whatever you are referring to. Thankyou!

What was offensive to me was your accusation that NK was belittling you when I saw no evidence of it.

As for the quote, it was from your note. The first part (in quotes) was your quoting NK. But the second part was your response to what he said. That's what I was responding to.

[valinors_sorrow]

We may be more in agreement than not here Starman.

I would greatly appreciate that you please stop attributing crazy ideas to me based on snap interpretations. Do you really believe that I believe human rights find their source in me? The word "grant" is used within the context and the context clearly indicates what meaning is intended.

I thought I detected a tone of superiority or even arrogance in the use of that word and addressed it by speaking of principles instead of personalities-- as so not to make it personal. Forgive me if I was incorrect but I may not be the only one who was. So this may also be a hint to you to use more gentle words in some places too? Just a thought...

You say respect everyone? Sorry but I don't respect serial killers, child molesters, rapists, murderers, and people of that sort. Neither does God require that I respect these people. Neither does God require that I be their friend and associate with them on a companionship basis. I do acknowledge that they have certain rights-of course and would never try to deprive them of such rights. That would be following their example of depriving people of property, life, happiness, good health, peace of mind, and free will. An example that is not Christian.

Honoring their rights is a form of respect. So we agree here.

You speak of free will. But unrestrained free will isn't granted by any government on earth and for very good reasons. Neither did God grant it. The reason he didn't is because it leads to social chaos and pandemonium. We have freedom within the parameters of his laws and regulations and it's for our own good. It helps to prevent, the abuse of the weaker by the stronger and courses of action leading to self injury or self destruction due to lack of wisdom.

I agree here too only I wouldn't call it "restrained" as much as "affected". We all indeed have total free will, we can do anything we please at anytime with anyone for any reason-- but what it comes with is a consequence. All actions have consequences, that is inescapable. Laws impose negative consequences for certain actions. And I believe (contrary to some beliefs) that God set this all up so that there are both negative and positive consequences to every single action we take and expects us to pay attention to that. But that does not diminish free will one atom's worth-- it only encourages us to learn and obey spiritual and secular laws. Each of us makes the decisions which to obey and which not to -- we are responsible for that just as the Creator intended. We each modify our own free will as we see fit just as the Creator intended. It's a marvelous plan, frankly. We agree, Starman, that gaining wisdom is good; we just have minor differences as to the details of that wisdom.

About claiming one thing or the other, I derive my beliefs from the Bible. So they are not MY personal claims as you seem to imply. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter. But to imply that they are merely my beliefs is a misrepresentation.

Factually they are your beliefs based on what you have learned from one of the holy books found on earth. They are still just your beliefs regardless of the significance of that book in particular. As are all our beliefs. No one is able to express more than that, which is kind of cool as it levels the playing field - another marvelous design by our Creator. Each of us has a belief. Please bear in mind that only Chistians believe the bible to be the word of God. Your deriving your beliefs from it is good for you and significant to me only in that its one of several holy books I like to consider. You may claim your source is greater than mine but I can do the very same thing back atcha-- another mexican stand off there! How can you express anything more than your personal belief when no one else can either?

About Christiians telling others about the Good News of God's kingdom that's an assignment that Jesus gave. It isn't meant as harrassment or disrespect for anyone else's beliefs. It is merely a sharing of something valuable with others.

Trust me, its harassment if its uninvited. Its disrespectful if it contains a cloaked put-down of another's religion. I am not alone in supporting those definitions either-- as you can plainly see on this thread. There is a way to talk about it that does neither and those folks who has mastered that could be easily modelled. Fortunately, there have been many examples of it posted on this thread too.

Also, the comparison between Hitler's insane policies and those of Christians who are teaching God's Word and trying to live by biblical principles is unjustified. People within the churches are free to leave whenever they wish. Those who are members of churches who are stricter were taught what was expected of them and voluntarily agreed to abide by the rules. No one twisted their arm or otherwise forced them into membership. So it is a totally voluntary thing. A concept totally alien to Hitler.

Tsk tsk--You are changing the comparison! It certainly was not "those of Christians who are teaching God's Word and trying to live by biblical principles" that I was referencing in my comparison and you know it too. I realise it was subtle so let me make it plain who I was comparing -- the overly zealous Christians (or any other religious extremists) who do some really ungodly things in the name of God. I agree with you here about its unjustified but you are the one who made this comparison so get a better argument Starman, this one doesn't behoove you! LOL And I should like to add that support of Hitler started completely voluntary in a besotted Germany desperate for answers. (and I am not sticking up for him or those times either here, okay? LOL)

Christianity has no conflicts. People do. Neither does God consider all humans his children. Some, based on their behavior, he views as children of the devil. Not that this is an excuse to persecute them, so please don't jump to that conclusion. Only that he doesn't quite see things in the way you are describing them.

Again we don't disagree. I know that Christians believe this and its one of two basic reasons I won't ever be a Christian. Where we do disagree is what God considers and I understand from a source I trust (just as much as you trust your bible, btw) that God made us all and therefore we are all God's children, albeit some are more sick than others.

I enjoy discussions with you Starman, thank you.

[NeedKarma]

Val,
In all fairness to christians I truly believe that Starman and Pumpkin represent a very small minority of christians in their very specific views. The vast majority of christians do indeed believe that we are all God children and 'love the sinner but not the sin'. I'd hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[valinors_sorrow]

Val,
In all fairness to christians I truly believe that Starman and Pumpkin represent a very small minority of christians in their very specific views. The vast majority of christians do indeed believe that we are all God children and 'love the sinner but not the sin'. I'd hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Thank you NeedKarma, snatches the baby back just in time!