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Choux · Feb 10, 2009, 11:36 AM

G, You are just making this up as you go along. :)

*The Bible* gives reasons for suffering, I can think of five reasons including what I stated above, and misery and suffering are horrible states of mind to endure. Many suffer a whole life like autistic people for example, as I said, there is no good answer in Christianity to human suffering in all its manifestations. :)

arcura · Feb 10, 2009, 02:34 PM

gromitt82,
I agree with you 100% on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

inthebox · Feb 10, 2009, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Job 7:1-4, 6-7

The Book of Job is one of the most popular stories in world literature.

It deals with the problem of human suffering of the just person. Why? Job knows he is righteous, but in the course of the story, as he argues with three friends who are convinced he is being punished for his sins, Job overdoes his own righteousness. He speaks to God directly, demanding an explanation for the ill-treatment he has received.

God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness. Job is humbled as he learns that our sufferings are not the result of our sins. Rather, that we suffer so that the works of God may be shown forth in us. Suffering is still a mystery, but our trust in God's goodness and obedient acceptance of His reasons will bring us to joyful salvation in God's heaven. In the end, health and prosperity are restored a hundredfold to Job.

His powerful story has comforted thousands upon thousands of people who have lost everything, but have held tenaciously to their faith in a loving God.

In our own lives, when we feel that God has acted cruelly or unjustly, then we need to look at Christ on the cross. Was it fair for Jesus, whose only crime was loving us, to be killed on a cross after severe humiliation and torture? Was it fair for Mary to suffer the terrible pain that only mothers can know and appreciate?

Like Job, may we never feel that God has abandoned us when He allows us to suffer. Rather, may we have faith enough in the wisdom of Providence that has allowed us to share in the mysterious plan of Jesus' saving Passion that goes on through the centuries. It all ends in Resurrection.

Do you believe that you suffer because God allows it to happen?
Or for some other reason?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Yes,

I don't know why the "good" or the "innocent" suffer.

I know that in the times that I have suffered [most of the time it is due to my own bad decisions] there is always a choice:

To TURN FROM God and seek the solutions / or escape in this world; like sex or drugs or alcohol or denial or in materialism or in hedonism,

Or

To humbly TURN TO God, pour out my sorrow, ask for relief and comfort, ask for wisdom, and patiently accept His sovreignty, and that His will be done.

Personally the suffering has always ended, and God has helped me.
I still don't like to suffer, but because of His blessings in previous trials, I know I can TURN TO God - always. :)

G&P

arcura · Feb 10, 2009, 08:14 PM

inthebox,
GOOD!!
I'm very happy for you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82 · Feb 11, 2009, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Choux

G, You are just making this up as you go along. :)

*The Bible* gives reasons for suffering, I can think of five reasons including what I stated above, and misery and suffering are horrible states of mind to endure. Many suffer a whole life like autistic people for example, as I said, there is no good answer in Christianity to human suffering in all its manifestations. :)

Of course I am making what I said as I go along, as you point out. This is why I mention it is a “more philosophical reason”
The point, dear Choux, is that neither you nor I (actually, no one) can say why we have to suffer down here. Autistic people do suffer and those dying of starvation in the world do suffer and the ~9 children dying PER MINUTE, 24 hours per day, 365 days per annum, as a NONSTOP average also suffer.
However, you never mentioned (and most people never do) how much suffering we can trigger in GOD with our behavior.
We would like GOD to take care of each one of us to prevent us from any pain and suffering. But we are not willing to avoid insulting GOD with our constant sins. And do not bother to answer that good Christians do not offend GOD for I will have to retort that there is no such thing as a good Christian. We may not rob or kill or hit our parents, granted. But that does not unfortunately preclude our committing all kind of daily sins that offend and affront GOD, for they actually represent our flagrant noncompliance with the 11 Commandments!
The Bible also says that Sodome and Gomorre were destroyed by the divine fire because the people living there had defied Yahweh through their constant sins. The way our world is going (the entire world) I wonder why GOD does not let one of these big meteorites collide with us to destroy our Earth for good…
Not doing it is already, in my opinion, an evident prove of GOD’s compassion towards us!
I’m sure no Father would stand the constant spitting and spurting from a son that GOD stands from us.

simoneaugie · Feb 11, 2009, 11:25 AM

Suffering is a perspective. If we are to believe that we only have this one life, perspective gets skewed. Why do children starve to death?If they continue to experience life after starving to death once or twice, the question is answered. What have you done to be of help?

When we believe that that child is "other" than ourselves, that God is separate from us, then the whole process makes no sense.

We give "suffering" to ourselves, it is pre-sent from a reality we cannot grasp (in our current state) except through faith. If we have faith that everything fits, our "pre-sent moments" are acceptable, no matter how painful they feel.

To me, this feels right. I believe in God, that he gives us free will to suffer all we want, die all we want. We are loved in spite of our exploratory behavior.

Choux · Feb 11, 2009, 12:54 PM

Simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives. :)

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*... no help in reality. :)

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.

inthebox · Feb 11, 2009, 02:05 PM

:)

Originally Posted by Choux

simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives.

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*...no help in reality.

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.

Since you do not believe Christianity or the Bible or God can explain sufferfering, enlighten us as to why there is suffering.

---------------------------------------------------------------

My wife states that the worst pain she has ever felt is childbirth. Three times, no epidural.
She states that what makes it tolerable, aside from her own toughness :), is the fact that it 1] ends, and 2] the joy that comes with the birth of her child.

I think, as a Christian, this life's suffering is tolerable because there is and end and at the end there is joy in being with our Lord :)

G&P

arcura · Feb 11, 2009, 07:21 PM

gromitt82,
YOU have made some very good points.
I hope many read it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jakester · Feb 11, 2009, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Choux

simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives. :)

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*...no help in reality. :)

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.

Choux - I have to say that I agree in part that ultimately, every conceivable form of suffering is not ultimately answerable. What I mean is that I don't think that we are going to be given a definitive answer for every form of suffering that we deal with. However, I think that Job serves as a pedagogical tool to inform believers that suffering is to be expected in this life. After all, Jesus suffered one of the cruelest deaths imaginable, and knew full well what his end would be.

Choux, everyone of us has to make a decision when we face suffering. Will we accept it and persevere through it or will we tell God to go to hell. Suffering sorts all of us out that way, that is reality. So it doesn't surprise me that you seem particularly disappointed with the bible and how you feel it fails to answer suffering adequately and how it fails to help human beings deal with it. My sentiment is that God has given me enough evidence that suffering is to be expected... I have to come to terms with that; that life isn't always going to look like the American dream. Secondly, having the eyes to see that God will never forsake those he has committed himself to even though they will experience hardship is a tremendous encouragement to a believer. All of the apostles of Jesus were killed for their faith. Peter was told that eventually his life would end via crucifixion, and yet he still maintained his belief in and commitment to God. That's a real believer... someone who withstands suffering, remains committed to his God, and ultimately finds the promises of God worth giving his life for.

Lastly, your comment that "The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable." Choux, I'm really disappointed by the arrogance of that statement. But more imporantly, that you feel all the more confident that you have the right perspective because you have read Bart D. Ehrman. I don't know who he is but unless he's God, I don't know that I should hand over my mind to his way of thinking because he's credentialed... that just doesn't strike me as very rational at all.

My opinion.

Wondergirl · Feb 11, 2009, 08:37 PM

I'm still stuck on the comment that autistic people suffer. Because they are autistic??

simoneaugie · Feb 11, 2009, 10:04 PM

Choux, you misunderstood me. "Blame the victim" only happens when we believe that we are separate entities.

We are all one, ours is not a better way, merely a different one. That's where my understanding lies today. That may seem a bit naïve or simplistic... Keeps me sane.

arcura · Feb 11, 2009, 11:14 PM

jakester,
I agree with you.
I don't know more than others about suffering but I do know about my own.
Right now my back hurts so bad that it is affecting my eye sight regardless of the pain pills I took. Without them it would be even more painful.
I suffer from my diabetes and bad painful knee.
I'm a victim of the consequences of living in this world. So be it.
I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins and those of the people I know, love, and those I work with on this site.
That is the best I know of what to do about my suffering.
I will do my best to persevere through this and hope and pray that I have better days ahead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82 · Feb 12, 2009, 04:14 AM

The tendency some people have to debate over things they know nothing about as if they had all the possible answers reminds me of what our politicians do (at least in my country) when they have true problems.. Namely, to start disputing over things that have little, if anything to do with the problem.

In this case, I would ask you, dear Choux, who on earth Dr. Ehrman believe he is? To start with, and despite his impeccable credentials, he considers himself as agnostic, that is one who is unsure whether GOD exists!

Dr. Ehrman’s book is, by and large, not considered as editorially successful as Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code, for this one has been read by millions of people. Yet, that does not certify it to be either factual or even accurate in its description of the Louvre Museum! It is just a fiction novel, like any other of the thousands written yearly...

But, irrespective of this fact, which I do not think qualifies Dr. Ehrman to discuss the Bible dispassionately, to the best of my knowledge, I know of nobody –not even the Pope in Rome- who can seriously boast of having a direct RED PHONE LINE with our Creator.
The Fathers and Doctors of the Church, the most famed Theologians and Philosophers and all the Bible Scholars and Exegetes, all they have been able so far to do (and will keep on doing) is to interpret the Sacred Books and affirm, with a fair amount of conceit too, that they know why GOD decided to do this or that.

The only message we can consider as received directly from GOD’s own lips is Jesus’ message, imparted through the Gospels; that is, provided we accept that He forms part of the Holy Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or in other words that HE is GOD.

As I already told you in my last answer the reasons of our sufferings can be many and/or very simple. Only GOD knows!

If you can await sometime more –which I truly wish will be as long as possible- you will eventually know the right answer to your question.

jakester · Feb 12, 2009, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

jakester,
I agree with you.
I don't know more than others about suffering but I do know about my own.
Right now my back hurts so bad that it is affecting my eye sight regardless of the pain pills I took. Without them it would be even more painful.
I suffer from my diabetes and bad painful knee.
I'm a victim of the consequences of living in this world. So be it.
I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins and those of the people I know, love, and those I work with on this site.
That is the best I know of what to do about my suffering.
I will do my best to persevere through this and hope and pray that I have better days ahead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering... the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

arcura · Feb 12, 2009, 05:13 PM

jakester,
I do not know if God will forgive sins when I offer my suffering up for fogiveness.
I just think that He may do so.
Some theologians think He may do so.
In my Church it is thought that He may do so.
So I do it in hopes that He will.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82 · Feb 16, 2009, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by jakester

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering...the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

Sorry to disagree with you.

A) Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant. According to our RCC HE was GOD's SON. In any case, neither you nor I can do anything else but to believe or not believe this assertion.

B) According to our RCC, again, our sufferings can be applied by GOD against our sins. Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs.c) Jesus Christ death in the Cross was meant to redeem Mankind of its sins and help us therefore to reach our Salvation. Here there is something which we know historically, i.e. that someone by the name of Jesus died in the Cross.

As for the rest, it will depend on whether your faith allows you to believe HE was the Son of GOD, that is GOD himself, or not.

I would say debates can be basically made when the faith does not intervene. Whenever Faith comes in, it is just a matter or believing it or not.

To start with we cannot even start debating whether GOD exists or not. More than 9/10s of mankind believes in God, one way or other. The rest is atheists. However, they cannot prove GOD does not exist as much as we cannot prove the contrary.

arcura · Feb 16, 2009, 07:21 PM

gromitt82,
Yes. Very good.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

samdarwen · Feb 17, 2009, 02:42 AM

Our suffering may be in many ways,, But have you ever thought it may be a test for your faith?
Maybe it's not just about you, nor it's about Job... Maybe it's to understand and know, Maybe it's because if we didn't feel the pain, we won't feel happiness.. May be to know the sweet, you need to taset the sour...
Maybe Job himself was a test.. For himself and every one learned about his story.

Wondergirl · Feb 17, 2009, 09:40 AM

I think our suffering is not only a means for us to appreciate good health but also a vehicle for us to learn empathy. I never realized how much I take walking for granted until I had to use a wheelchair after surgery on my leg. Suddenly, parking lots looked huge and those heavy doors at stores needed thought -- I had to plan my shopping trips and parking (and even what time of day I shopped!) around my limited abilities. I have become much more sympathetic to the handicapped and all the hurdles they must encounter.

(Don't believe that "handicapped accessible" statement. It ain't true! There may be an oversized stall in a public bathroom big enough to accommodate your wheelchair, but when you go to wash your hands at the sink, you can't reach the faucets and the paper towels dispenser or hand dryer on-button is over your head. You wheel to the bathroom door to go back out into the hallway or store, and the door opens inward. Then what do you do? My advice -- borrow a whelchair and try it out at a store or mall some day.)