[mjsalmonjr]

I am in the planning phase of pouring a concrete patio that I plan on staining and scoring. I am having trouble with the layout because the area is surrounded on two sides by the house' foundation and on one side by a side walk. The area is approx. 100 sf. I understand the need for expanion joints along the sides next to the foundation. I am worried about the appearance of a new pretty patio next to an old side walk that runs the length of one side. I live in the deep south where we have a few hard freezes a year, if that has any impact on the decision. I am planning on cutting control joints at normal intervals.

[21boat]

You also need expansion joints where it butts to the side walk.
This is only 10 x10 feet. You shouldn't have to cut expansion joints especially in the deep south. Unless this is longer than wide.
There should be min 4" of crushed stone 2b clean underneath the concrete pad.
I usually drill through the expansion joint where it against the house wall and every 16" or so stub out a 3/8 rebar about 8" from the foundation wall. This locks and controls those elevations on any movement against the house.
Also I would put in 6x6 10 gage or heavier wire mats in the crete for reinforcement.

The PERFECT way to pour a patio pad is to dig down a trough/shovel the sides for a frost footer 18" below grade or what ever the frost line is and then it won't freeze and lift.

There will be a big difference in color from new to old. So its up to you on looks and what you are satisfied. With.

You could incorporate the old walk being removed and pour that. Not sure what you want here and opinion on looks?


Where are all these controls joints being cut at? Use a concrete brass hand grover. Sorry I'm an old crete man from the late 70s. If someone was caught cutting a patio or walk for the finish look we would not be paid for the work. Cutting has become more common because to many real tradesmen are gone and the imports of construction workers does this practice and now to many people think this is normal. Been placing crete professionally for for 33 years. You should NEVER cut groves in Exterior surface of a patio. What happens there is the crete on the side of that cut is exposed and doesn't have a finish top on that right angle. This causes a high chance for Spawling when it freezes at that edge. We cut to the next block that has been grooved to get that rounded sealed edge. Its one thing on repair but still it should be cut to the hand finish grove. Cuts inside are OK and even then it can pop its edges and flake the top edge. That's why we use Screed rail when all possible.

I would pour it a 4,000 PSI. 100 sq at 4" perfect place is 1 1/4 yd to place Add 1/4 yd for slump and get it at a 4 in wetness. Can juice it up a hair if needed. To check the pour prep to place crete. 46,656 cubic inches to a cubic yard.
A yard of crete is 4,000 lbs.



Signed 21 Boat

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[mjsalmonjr]

I appreciate the info and the quick reply.
I am a little unclear about the control joints. I thought with any slab of concrete needed to incorporate control joints to manage cracking. This space is rectangular approx. 9x11. Is that small enough so I don't have to worry about control joints?
Is the concern about the appearance of the control joints?
I am planning on scoring a tile design into the slab and expected to make one of these scored lines my control joint in the center of the slab.

[21boat]

That's fine Use the wire in it and good drainage of stone. The stone is mostly the secret here. We pour patios here with heavy gage wire and bigger than that and it gets 0 degrees here. ALL concrete moves when water gets stuck in small puddles in the dirt below the stone.

Personally I like a couple of 3/8 rebar in it with the wire. Cut 3 pieces pf 20' rod 6 pieces

A pad can be very big as long as there is good drainage under it and some steel. Think of it as a precast reinforced like a Giant patio block.
If steel is in it then the whole piece can float and hold the stress with ease
My one shop is 40x60 and no heat with screed rails and doesn't crack it has a roof but into a bank and the water doesn't puddle in the stone. It freezes big time

Hears why I tell you to pin onto house. The concrete min slope is 1/4 per ft. So a new strong pad. A pad will freeze first at its edges away from house ext heat reflection. So the tip of the pad lifts first. Then it heads toward the house freezing. So now the pad lifted from the front first starting to level the pad more. When it goes to thaw, the first warmest part starts which is Always starting at its warmest which is against the house. That part settles first and sinks just a hair because of the wait transferring to that thawed point. Now the pad slope just a little away from the house. As this happens over the years it stats to get flatter and then in time it starts to puddle at the house and dump water in winter rains and freezes even. How many time to you see a set of concrete steps pull away from a house or the actual top of the step or small landing lean towards the house and beat it up quicker and quicker.
Look at the concrete roadways and see how wide and long each pad is. Granted its thick crete but look at the square feet. Drainage is the ticket.

I'm still trying to explain this on my bids as to why it may be higher because of sloping the dirt on a crete driveway and that chews up more TONS of stone to level out but drains by dirt slope so water doesn't get trapped and lift and brake it up.

I'm from the old school before diamond saws. Are main objective was NOT to let water under the slab. Not saw cut expansion cuts in. That can work backward to. It weakens the slab and it may crack there and separate and now what. Saw cuts aren't Flared like a hand grove tool and the water gets stuck in the thin grove and that alone can pop the side edges and. Hand grooving is at an angle on it sides so if water does get trapped it expands UP and rises out of the wedge shape and doesn't get stuck and apply pressure sideways to pop those edges.

So slope dirt. Stone rebar/ wire. Pin into house,

Signed 21 Boat

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