[classyT]

I watched Ted Haggard on Oprah Winfrey today. Did any of you see him? If so, what is your take? I believe the guy is a real Christian no matter what he did. I had always heard that he BLASTED homosexuals but according to him he didn't. Just curious as to your take on the man. Any Thoughts? Think he is a fraud or just a forgiven sinner?

[jakester]

hey classyT -

no, I did not see it... personally, I have only vague knowledge of who Ted Haggard is. I know that he had been very outspoken in the media against homosexuality. Then I did some reading on him and I was surprised to learn that he had resigned from his position with National Association of Evangelicals because of allegations brought against him regarding the purchase of methamphetamines and sex from a man. For awhile it seemed that he had the support of many popular evangelicals like Jerry Falwell and James Dobson; only later on, after Haggard had admitted (at least in part) his guilt, did some of his previous supporters begin to distance themselves from him (James Dobson being the most notable).

I know that anything is possible in the human heart; we are capable of committing all kinds of evil, even as believers. I guess I am a little puzzled about characters like Ted Haggard. In the community that I live in there was an evangelical pastor who was very outspoken about sin…he was of the sort who believed that Christians should only read the King James Bible. After pastoring a church for over 10 ten years, he was caught by his wife leaving a gay bar with a young man. He was confronted about the incident by the church community. He eventually resigned because of this.

I keep hearing more and more about similar, outspoken leaders falling to the same issues. What's puzzling is why these men are falling for other men, not women. And then I start thinking about other issues about how some people are “Christians” by name only. If Jesus meant that not everyone who called him Lord was a child of God, then couldn't it be possible for not only laypeople in a church but also the pastors of the same church to be illegitimate? I guess what I am saying, classy, is that just because someone says he or she is a Christian does not mean it is a reality in the heart of that person. Now, am I saying that Ted Haggard or anyone like him who commits homosexual acts are not Christians? No. But I don't think a person can continue on living that kind of lifestyle (and that would also include heterosexual promiscuity) and not be convicted of God's will. What's striking to me is that Ted Haggard, a supposed man of God, was living in sin and being a pastor was not already in the process of trying to deal with his issue; it was only when his sin became public did he begin seeking counsel. Okay, fine, I can still give him the benefit of the doubt. But he continually denied any wrongdoing and only when he was continually pressed about his sin did he begin to start talking; but he was still very hesitant to admit he had sex with the man. To me, that's suspect. When David was confronted by Nathan about his sin, he didn't deny it but he repented and acknowledged his evil. I think a true mark of a believer is someone who when his sin is apparent doesn't try to deny it or excuse it away, but deals soberly with it and owns it.

Lastly, I am just an average guy trying to live my life and understand God. I have learned that sometimes it is a process even for myself to learn whether I am truly a committed believer or not. What I mean is, 6 years ago I prayed and asked God for forgiveness. It took me several years to realize that I didn't just mouth words but that I had sincerely meant it when I asked God for mercy and that I was willing to commit my life to following him. I only learned the seriousness of my commitment after going through several really hard trials in my life that tested my faith; after going through them I realized that even though I wanted at times to run away from God, I had nowhere to go…I was a captive of my King and Lord. So, I'm saying that even though I said I was a Christian, it wasn't until years later that I could really say it with a kind of confidence that did not betray my real commitments…my faith was a commitment that I really understood because it had stood up to trials. If it is a challenge even for us to know our own hearts, then how can we really know the hearts of others confidently…especially people we have never met? So then, I think it is impossible to say whether Ted Haggard is a believer or not…you and I cannot peer into his heart and see. But when a person's life does not match up with what he says he believes, it can mean only two things:

1) He's in process and in time God will help him sort things out or
2) He's not an authentic believer but a counterfeit

Perhaps there are other ways of looking at it but this is how I see it at present. What are your thoughts, classyT?

Sincerely.

[Choux]

I watched him on Oprah, wouldn't have missed it for anything.

I think he is one guy who will be tormented by his homosexuality until the day he dies... and he will force himself to lie and misrepresent it to himself and others.

And again, we see another person whose sexuality was skewed by childhood molestation. People whose sexual path is determined by adults early in life when a kid is impressionable... and they have to live their life hating that aspect of themselves because of their religion and what its minister preaches.

Anyway, he is one great salesman, he is.

Best wishes, :)

[NeedKarma]

He's had a second homosexual relationship: Disgraced pastor Haggard facing new sex allegations - CNN.com
They tried to pay off the man but it didn't work.

I guess the gay cure didn't take. The disgrace is that Ted and his fellow Christians still don't get that you can't (and shouldn't be) "cured of being gay".

[galveston]

In the above, I forgot to click the "disagree".
Deliverance comes the same way as deliverance from any other sin, through faith in the accomplished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary and the tomb.

[NeedKarma]

You'd be wrong Gal.

Haggard says he is "completely heterosexual" - The Denver Post

Among other things, the overseers urged Haggard to enter a 12-step program for sexual addiction, Ware said.
Ralph said three weeks of counseling at an undisclosed Arizona treatment center helped Haggard immensely and left Haggard sure of one thing. "He is completely heterosexual," Ralph said.

Sounds like any addiction center, not a "faith healing" center.

[cozyk]

In the above, I forgot to click the "disagree".
Deliverance comes the same way as deliverance from any other sin, through faith in the accomplished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary and the tomb.

What is the diff between "being cured" vs "being delivered" from your gayness?

[Fr_Chuck]

Cured is a medical term, it would refer to a medical treatment, such as finding the gene or DNA causing it and finding a cure.
Or perhaps even finding a mental reason and dealing with it though counseling.

Being delivered ( while of course possible though medical process, as people cured of cancer) but delivered is more of a instant happening, changed in a blink of a eye is a normal idea of it.

[cozyk]

I saw Oprah yesterday and came away with many impressions.

Mr. Haggard I get the feeling that he has been tortured by this part of himself, that he has been taught to hate. That makes me sad for him. I have to wonder why he preached so hard about the evils of homosexuality. The dark cloud over Christianity was made even darker because Haggard solidified what is already believed. That many christian leaders are hypocrites and crooked. I choose to give him the benefit of a doubt. I think it is awful that the church turned their back on him. Now, I've heard that they have welcomed him back. I think he needs love, support, forgiveness, understanding and acceptance. He should be encouraged to find his own truth and not be swayed by what is expected of him. And whatever that is, unconditional support would be the right thing to do.

Mrs Haggard My impression of her was that she wants to sweep his sexual confusion under the rug and drop it. Drop it like a ton of bricks. Self identity is not like the law. With civil law, you can feel like murdering someone, but until you actually do it, you are not a murderer. With self identity, you can be gay and never have sex with another gay, but at the end of the day, you are still gay. The wife saw it as a horrible sin, but not acting on it made it okay. The woman is in denial.

The daughter She impressed me more than anyone. Not only did she forgive her father, but she used this time to REALLY form a relationship with him that had been non-existent. Pryor to this, she saw her father as "up there" a stranger on this pedestal that she couldn't relate to. When he came crashing down, she saw an authenticity in him for the first time. When he no longer had this "godly" shield around him, but was just a hurting person, she was able to connect. That was beautiful.

The Son Basically a level headed guy and a good "sport" about the whole thing.

Oprah Her feeling toward Mrs Haggard was so obvious to me. Oprah thought she was an unconscious , brain washed by her religion, living in denial, nut. For Mr Haggard, she reserved some skepticism but found snippets of "self awareness" coming through.
She holds out hope for him. She seem to be impressed with daughter and son.

This is the vibes I picked up from the show.

[Fr_Chuck]

No, it shows HE has a problem, and was not able to keep those feelings under control, It does not mean that there is "alot" of church leaders who are anything.

And no, in Christianity there is really only one truth in many issues, this is one of them, he can not merely go find his own truth and really follow christanity, he has to follow the teachings of the bible, or go off and form some other non christian church.

[cozyk]

Chuck, what about...

Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, Haggard, Bishop Thomas Weeks in Atlanta, Lonnie Latham in Oklahoma , Jerry Watkins in Minneapolis, David Leon Bishop in California, Charles Langley in Virginia, William David Webb in Alabama, Marvin Lowe in Oklahoma, Eugene Arthur in Ohio, Martin Denessa in Louisiana, Harold Garth in Tennessee, should I go on? My point was that skepticism of the church and religion comes from the hypocrisy of these church leaders.

Sure, there are people in all walks of life that display this bad behavior. But, these men are held to a higher standard. They should be the example of morality if they are going to preach it.

Maybe he should form his own non-christian church, if the christian one does not accept you if you are "flawed" in this way.
It was pointed out yesterday that sexual orientation is part of who and what you are like your skin color, eye color, or your talent.

[classyT]

He's had a second homosexual relationship: Disgraced pastor Haggard facing new sex allegations - CNN.com
They tried to pay off the man but it didn't work.

I guess the gay cure didn't take. The disgrace is that Ted and his fellow Christians still don't get that you can't (and shouldn't be) "cured of being gay".

Need,

I could be wrong but that article is misleading.. this relationship occurred in 2006 not recently. After the oprah show, this came to light and he gave a statement and acknowledge it.. but it didn't happen RECENTLY... am I wrong here?

AND... man cannot be "cured" from any sinful behavior. He can be forgiven, he can be delivered, he can be given a new heart... But the flesh of a man CANNOT be improved... and there lies the problem. We tend to think it can.

[classyT]

hey classyT -

no, I did not see it...personally, I have only vague knowledge of who Ted Haggard is. I know that he had been very outspoken in the media against homosexuality. Then I did some reading on him and I was surprised to learn that he had resigned from his position with National Association of Evangelicals because of allegations brought against him regarding the purchase of methamphetamines and sex from a man. For awhile it seemed that he had the support of many popular evangelicals like Jerry Falwell and James Dobson; only later on, after Haggard had admitted (at least in part) his guilt, did some of his previous supporters begin to distance themselves from him (James Dobson being the most notable).

I know that anything is possible in the human heart; we are capable of committing all kinds of evil, even as believers. I guess I am a little puzzled about characters like Ted Haggard. In the community that I live in there was an evangelical pastor who was very outspoken about sin…he was of the sort who believed that Christians should only read the King James Bible. After pastoring a church for over 10 ten years, he was caught by his wife leaving a gay bar with a young man. He was confronted about the incident by the church community. He eventually resigned because of this.

I keep hearing more and more about similar, outspoken leaders falling to the same issues. What’s puzzling is why these men are falling for other men, not women. And then I start thinking about other issues about how some people are “Christians” by name only. If Jesus meant that not everyone who called him Lord was a child of God, then couldn’t it be possible for not only laypeople in a church but also the pastors of the same church to be illegitimate? I guess what I am saying, classy, is that just because someone says he or she is a Christian does not mean it is a reality in the heart of that person. Now, am I saying that Ted Haggard or anyone like him who commits homosexual acts are not Christians? No. But I don’t think a person can continue on living that kind of lifestyle (and that would also include heterosexual promiscuity) and not be convicted of God’s will. What’s striking to me is that Ted Haggard, a supposed man of God, was living in sin and being a pastor was not already in the process of trying to deal with his issue; it was only when his sin became public did he begin seeking counsel. Okay, fine, I can still give him the benefit of the doubt. But he continually denied any wrongdoing and only when he was continually pressed about his sin did he begin to start talking; but he was still very hesitant to admit he had sex with the man. To me, that’s suspect. When David was confronted by Nathan about his sin, he didn’t deny it but he repented and acknowledged his evil. I think a true mark of a believer is someone who when his sin is apparent doesn’t try to deny it or excuse it away, but deals soberly with it and owns it.

Lastly, I am just an average guy trying to live my life and understand God. I have learned that sometimes it is a process even for myself to learn whether I am truly a committed believer or not. What I mean is, 6 years ago I prayed and asked God for forgiveness. It took me several years to realize that I didn’t just mouth words but that I had sincerely meant it when I asked God for mercy and that I was willing to commit my life to following him. I only learned the seriousness of my commitment after going through several really hard trials in my life that tested my faith; after going through them I realized that even though I wanted at times to run away from God, I had nowhere to go…I was a captive of my King and Lord. So, I’m saying that even though I said I was a Christian, it wasn’t until years later that I could really say it with a kind of confidence that did not betray my real commitments…my faith was a commitment that I really understood because it had stood up to trials. If it is a challenge even for us to know our own hearts, then how can we really know the hearts of others confidently…especially people we have never met? So then, I think it is impossible to say whether Ted Haggard is a believer or not…you and I cannot peer into his heart and see. But when a person’s life does not match up with what he says he believes, it can mean only two things:

1) He’s in process and in time God will help him sort things out or
2) He’s not an authentic believer but a counterfeit

Perhaps there are other ways of looking at it but this is how I see it at present. What are your thoughts, classyT?

Sincerely.

OK jakester, for a youngen, you are pretty smart! ( I am assuming the pic you had up was you... ) Yes, I do agree with you, You cannot know my heart NOR I yours. We can watch peoples actions and words. With his WORDS it would appear that he is indeed a believer. But who really knows. AND the danger with looking at MEN, when the fail, we tend to think christianity FAILS. Not so. I always tell my sons... MEN are not YOUR standard... I AM NOT your standard... the Lord Jesus is!! However, when we claim to be the Lord's we have an awesome responsibility.

AND I would also agree with you that we are all a work in progress... there are times when I felt so saved I could preach the gospel from the rooftop and others where I couldn't feel the presents of the Lord OR my actions were so sinful that I honestly questions my OWN faith. Didn't make me any less saved though.

I feel bad for this guy TO A POINT. He was molested by a man very young and It screws you up... even if it hadn't been a homosexual molestation. Children have NO WAY of putthing this into some kind of prospective. It damages and we see the effects. I think of the Lord saying that it would be better to but concrete block around your neck and sink to the bottom of the sea than to hurt a child... ( I paraphrased that of course).

The thing is... he was in a place of leadership!! He should have stepped down on his own and this is the reason I believe it came to light. I was popping pills ( narcotics) at one time in my life and was offered a position at my church to teach a woman's bible study group. I tried to.. but I could NOT! I HAD to step down... I was knee deep in sin and I was too afraid of the Lord to continue. So in MY MIND, the WORSE thing Ted did was stay in his leadership position.

[classyT]

I watched him on Oprah, wouldn't have missed it for anything.

I think he is one guy who will be tormented by his homosexuality until the day he dies....and he will force himself to lie and misrepresent it to himself and others.

And again, we see another person whose sexuality was skewed by childhood molestation. People whose sexual path is determined by adults early in life when a kid is impressionable....and they have to live their life hating that aspect of themselves because of their religion and what its minister preaches.

Anyway, he is one great salesman, he is.

Best wishes, :)

Choux, I do not care one hoot of what MAN preaches. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God! And it is too bad that people in general don't take a look see for themselves. We shouldn't take the word of a minister just because he is one. And yes.. Ted is tormented and his troubles began when he was molested and confused as a small child. Why do you HAVE to label him a homosexual? Why can't he just be a man that has a sinful nature? He is married. Claims to LOVE his wife, has children... why is THAT not valid proof he isn't necessarily GAY? If a Gay man has a heterosexual fling.. how often do you hear this... "he isn't Gay he is hetertosexual suppressing his sexuality". I don't know... in my mind.. Ted is a sinner and because of early molestation, he has sexual issues and struggles with that particular sin. Why is that out of the question?

[classyT]

I saw Oprah yesterday and came away with many impressions.

Mr. Haggard I get the feeling that he has been tortured by this part of himself, that he has been taught to hate. That makes me sad for him. I have to wonder why he preached so hard about the evils of homosexuality. The dark cloud over Christianity was made even darker because Haggard solidified what is already believed. That many christian leaders are hypocrites and crooked. I choose to give him the benefit of a doubt. I think it is awful that the church turned their back on him. Now, I've heard that they have welcomed him back. I think he needs love, support, forgiveness, understanding and acceptance. He should be encouraged to find his own truth and not be swayed by what is expected of him. And whatever that is, unconditional support would be the right thing to do.

Mrs Haggard My impression of her was that she wants to sweep his sexual confusion under the rug and drop it. Drop it like a ton of bricks. Self identity is not like the law. With civil law, you can feel like murdering someone, but until you actually do it, you are not a murderer. With self identity, you can be gay and never have sex with another gay, but at the end of the day, you are still gay. The wife saw it as a horrible sin, but not acting on it made it okay. The woman is in denial.

The daughter She impressed me more than anyone. Not only did she forgive her father, but she used this time to REALLY form a relationship with him that had been non-existent. Pryor to this, she saw her father as "up there" a stranger on this pedestal that she couldn't relate to. When he came crashing down, she saw an authenticity in him for the first time. When he no longer had this "godly" shield around him, but was just a hurting person, she was able to connect. That was beautiful.

The Son Basically a level headed guy and a good "sport" about the whole thing.

Oprah Her feeling toward Mrs Haggard was so obvious to me. Oprah thought she was an unconscious , brain washed by her religion, living in denial, nut. For Mr Haggard, she reserved some skepticism but found snippets of "self awareness" coming through.
She holds out hope for him. She seem to be impressed with daughter and son.

This is the vibes I picked up from the show.

Wow. I don't know how Mrs. Haggard can be in denial. She heard him say he had sex with a man, has struggled all his life with these thoughts. He even said HE STILL DOES. Her point is he doesn't HAVE to act on them.

How about a heterosexual male who enjoys several women at once. It is perversion according to the Bible. He thinks about it... he has actually DONE this on several occasions but has stopped because he is married and acknowledges it is sin. OR if you don't like that example.. lets just say this guy struggles with lust and has stepped out on his wife with ONE woman. If this guy is serious he CAN stop it is a CHOICE. I completely disagreed with Oprah. But when you put the responsibility on the PERSON to choose, then it doesn't line up with Oprah's agenda or beliefs. Sin is sin. Period. You can sin, or you cannot sin.. it is ALWAYS a choice.

Why does everyone act like Homosexual behavior is NOT A CHOICE?? I like narcotics... can't help it. I just like the way they make me feel. Some people think I was actually BORN with the disease of addiction... does that mean I HAVE to take them? They say my body chemistry or some such thing is programed towards them.. so what then should I take them because I can't HELP IT? Please.

[NeedKarma]

I like narcotics....can't help it. I just like the way they make me feel. Some people think I was actually BORN with the disease of addiction....does that mean I HAVE to take them? They say my body chemistry or some such thing is programed towards them..so what then should I take them because I can't HELP IT?

So? Stop taking narcotics completely. Make that choice.

[classyT]

So? Stop taking narcotics completely. Make that choice.

Need...

I have... YEARS ago.. OK 3 years but you see my point?

[NeedKarma]

No. That thread was done a while ago: is homosexuality a choice or not. No need to rehash it here. There are different views.

[classyT]

No. That thread was done a while ago: is homosexuality a choice or not. No need to rehash it here. There are different views.

NK,

LOL.. ok. You afraid to have a battle of wits with me? I'd out smart you... always do. LOL ;)

[NeedKarma]

Delusion is sad thing to witness.