[VBNomad]

What an interesting series of comments! And all from people of the same basic religion. WOW. Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes of all time. "My only regret is that I am not young enough to know everything."

And what is that quote from your bible... "You can tell these Christians by how..." umm, self righteous? Intolerant? Pig headed?. what was it again?

[talaniman]

Quote from reincarnation and the bible:

The doctrines of pre-existence and reincarnation existed as secret teachings of Jesus until they were declared a heresy by the Roman Church in 553 A.D. It was at this time that the Roman Church aggressively destroyed competing teachings and so-called heresies within the Church. Along with the destruction of unorthodox teachings came the destruction of Jews, Gnostics, and ultimately anyone who stood in the way of the Inquisition and Crusades

That was a time in history when man was exerting his influence over the people to justify his own greed.

[VBNomad]

Quote from reincarnation and the bible:
That was a time in history when man was exerting his influence over the people to justify his own greed.

And that sad time differs from our own how?

[valinors_sorrow]

Whether it was taught as true by early Christians or not doesn't appear to have a great deal of relevance for today's world and there is clearly not much agreement on this topic. I wonder, does it make what we experience here and now any different, Christian or otherwise, if they did or didn't teach it?

Hmmm but now that I think about it off the cuff, I could see wishing that reincarnation could be proved as real since then people would be more careful in their actions with a real personal concern of being reincarnated into, say, a frog next time hanging in the balance, wouldn't they? And I am all for a more careful treatment of each other.

[VBNomad]

At the most basic level, the belief could prevent us humans from destroying our planet. If you have to come back, do you really want to return to a world more polluted, more disease ridden, more overpopulated. On a political level, sure those Nike's are cool, but do you really want to be the man in the sweatshop making them next time? Would we be so quick to oppress or exploit?

[JoeCanada76]

Yes, it would make people think.

[talaniman]

Wow. Never really thought of it like that before so it does explain why it could be stricken from the books so to speak, and forbidden and against policy.
ByVBNomad

At the most basic level, the belief could prevent us humans from destroying our planet. If you have to come back, do you really want to return to a world more polluted, more disease ridden, more overpopulated. On a political level, sure those Nike's are cool, but do you really want to be the man in the sweatshop making them next time? Would we be so quick to oppress or exploit?

A lot of food for thought.

[31pumpkin]

One couldn't come back as a cockroach because insects don't have spirits. I don't think they even have a soul.


There will be a new Heaven & a new earth when Jesus' returns. That's why I tell myself, if I don't get to see the Holy Land in this life(b/c of the violence) then I'll have to wait for the next.

[talaniman]

Coming back as a cockroach would be a fitting reward for some of us humans who have no soul.

[31pumpkin]

Disagree. Now you're playing God. Judgmental. B/c they could say the same for you.

[JoeCanada76]

How do you know who has a soul and who doesn't. All creatures great and small were all created by God. They all have an importance for one thing or another. Can anything be alive without the spirit of God?

[Thomas1970]

One couldn't come back as a cockroach because insects don't have spirits. I don't think they even have a soul.

Short of recalling a prior life as a roach, I think this would be extremely diffuclt to speculate upon. Many people still disagree as to whether animals are capable of feeling and expressing emotion, and aren't simply motivated by instinctual needs and drives.
Though not everyone agrees that animals don't have a soul. There are Hindu temples devoted to rats, which are believed to be reincarnated ancestors. Many Hawaiian people believe the same of sharks. In the country of Bhutan, this belief is so strong regarding Black Cranes, killing one entails a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole.
One thing is for sure though... Should we finally fire off a few of those nuclear warheads, from a purely biological perspective, meek or not, cockroaches do stand the best chance of inheriting the Earth. And please don't argue this one, unless you have lived with them as I have. :D

[Thomas1970]

Hi Orange,
You are absolutely correct in that. Such religions are referred to as "Animistic", and two examples would be the native religions of Tibet and Japan, Bon and Shinto respectively. Here is a good link explaining Animism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic

[31pumpkin]

Dogs, cats, horses, etc. have a soul (mind,will & emotions) A cockroach or lower animal couldn't I think, because it doesn't have a brain or heart. Do you agree?

But how could a rat be someone's relative? Where did the person's spirit go?
God gave man a spirit. It's what separates man from other living things.

[VBNomad]

I wouldn't think God would be limited to a physical structure or it's size or sophistication. If the lesson you needed to learn was in a worm. God could make your soul experience that existence. And 'you' would perceive as a worm. Not as a person trapped in a worm's body. And we can only speculate on the hierarchy of progression, or even if there is one. After many lives in the human form a master may prefer the life of a pampered cat or wild bird.. to be an otter for the pure joy of it. A racoon to have fun with the humans.

I think a real theological question buried in here is do we continue as souls to perceive as human once we are free of the human body. And after living bodiless, or in other forms would we ever willingly choose the human body again. Or would a spirit body be more like God's real 'image'.

[Thomas1970]

Dogs, cats, horses, etc. have a soul (mind,will & emotions) A cockroach or lower animal couldn't I think, b/c it doesn't have a brain or heart. Do you agree?

But how could a rat be someone's relative? Where did the person's spirit go?
God gave man a spirit. It's what separates man from other living things.

Into the rat, according to Hindus. Many Hindu gods, such as Ganesha, are depicted as having animal characteristics, though fully possessed of the intellectual faculties of humans.
Insects do in fact have a heart and brain, though primitive in comparison to ours. Their "blood" is green in general, as it carries no oxygen. Not possessing lungs, they bring oygen into their bodies through other means.
Though the argument could be made, even in insects, that there is an animating force beyond the simple electrical activity exhibited by the brain, as cockroaches have been known to survive up to thirty days without a head.

[JoeCanada76]

Now the discussions are becoming very interesting and informative. Whoo hooo. Clapping and smiling.

Joe

[31pumpkin]

The nervous system and circulatory system of an insect is so primitive and simple that it is controlled innately by reflex and instinct. It reacts to it's own internal stimuli and external stimuli.
What I'm saying is an insect is not capable of thought or learning (as a pet)
I believe anything with a nervous system feels pain when it's crushed. But its brain doesn't(the insect) has the capacity to look at the " exterminator" and look like it's saying "please don't kill me!"

So that's why I don't think they have a soul. Insects are just part of ecology. I don't think there's anything "sacred" about them. Just my opinion, of course.

[NeedKarma]

So is it a sliding scale of "soul"? A cockroach does have one but a dog does. How about a well-trained fish you've had for years? Does a chimpanzee have a soul? Does that cold-blooded killer have a soul? It's such a difficult concept to describe much less to have any form of agreement.

[31pumpkin]

The soul consists of the 1) mind 2) will 3) and emotions. I certainly would think that mammals have the capacity to think & learn, have a will, and have feelings more than just instinctual.(heartfelt feelings) Let's forget about the spirit for now.

But the question I'd like to ask for" believers" in reincarnation is: How does the rat that may have a soul cleanse itself for the next incarnation? What would the criteria be for the rat to improve itself in its life, so that it would return something better? Does it have to reach some kind of Nirvana? What would constitute a judgment of a "good rat"?

This is sounding crazy already to me. So I don't know if it's going to get any saner!