[arcura]

Akoue,
You said to Tj3, "You say you have answered that question to your own satisfaction. That is your right. Clearly, however, you haven't answered it to ours. How you proceed on the strength of that is entirely your own affair."
I agree.
Fred

[asking]

I would like to know the answers to those question which I fear only I can answer adequately.

Please do.

[Tj3]

You are looking at #140. Go up two posts.
In any case, it's a brief summary of the last 3 billion years of life, as understood (roughly) by biologists and paleontologists (a species of biologist). As Akoue points out, this is biological doctrine at this point, so no need to go on and on about it. Everybody's heard it all before.

Doctrine, eh? So are you saying that all biologists must agree with this, or do you acknowledge the fact that there are variants in views on this topic amongst biologists?

I gather that you agree that fossils are the remains of real organisms.

Fossilized remains. Too bad you did not asked that before starting on to 20 questions. If that was what you were trying to get at, we could have gotten to the point much faster. That is why I was asking you to get to the point and be specific.

What do you think of trilobites?

I don't really stay awake at night thinking about them. Why, again, what is your point? What do YOU think about them?

There were so very many at one point and now there are none, except for the fossils. Was God inordinately fond of them at one point and then they fell from grace? What happened?

Have you ever heard of something called extinction?

BTW, maybe you will answer my previous question one of these times. You seem to like asking them, but you rarely answer questions. Let's try again (third time posted):

But I did raise a point about the fossil record some time back and I never heard anything from you in response. Let's bring this back again and let's see if we can get an actually discussion going. Since you feel free to ask questions, I am sure that you will have no problem answering some. I said:

-----------------------------
The layers are often turned upside down to what you describe, and often animals that should be ancient, according to evolution, are mixed in with animals that should be recent according to evolution. I have seen for myself trees in Joggins, NS (a world heritage site) where trees are fossilized and, single trees can be seen growing up through what would be, accordingly to evolutionists, millions or perhaps even hundreds of millions of years.
-----------------------------

What does this fossil record tell us?

[arcura]

TJ3,
PLEASE,
Do you agree or disagree with what modern popular science says about the fossil record?
Once again what does the fossil record mean or say to you?

[Tj3]

TJ3,
PLEASE,
Do you agree or disagree with what modern popular science says about the fossil record?
Once again what does the fossil record mean or say to you?

There are variant views amongst modern science, and as a man of science, I accept modern science and find it in concert with the Bible. It is for that reason that I reject the theory of macro-evolution, as do thousands of other scientists.

If you want to see a good book on evolution, try this one written by a leading scientist in the field:

Amazon.com: The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism: Michael J. Behe: Books

It is an excellent book. I don't agree with everything that he says, but it is an eye opener based upon the latest scientific findings.

[asking]

Doctrine, eh? So are you saying that all biologist must agree with this, or do you acknowledge the fact that there are variants in views on this topic amongst biologists?

Yeah, I thought you'd like that word! I don't acknowledge any substantive variants on the big picture. You can find people arguing about details but not about (1) common descent with modification or (2) the overall structure of our family tree and the order in which organisms have evolved. All biologists DO agree.

I don't really stay awake at night thinking about [trilobites].

Probably give you nightmares. :)

Have you ever heard of something called extinction?

Well, why does God extinguish His own Creations?
Were they on Noah's Ark?

The layers are often turned upside down to what you describe, and often animals that should be ancient, according to evolution, are mixed in with animals that should be recent according to evolution. I have seen for myself trees in Joggins, NS (a world heritage site) where trees are fossilized and, single trees can be seen growing up through what would be, accordingly to evolutionists, millions or perhaps even hundreds of millions of years.

Yup. The layers are often turned upside down, tangled up, or on their sides. You name it. I learned that in Geology 10. But figuring out the order in which they were originally formed is not that hard, I learned in geology 10. It's mainly a mapping problem. And if you get really confused, there's always radiometric dating.

I have no way of knowing what you saw at Joggins, NS (or where that is). But it's totally possible for a fossilized tree to be unburied and reburied under different sediments. Sure. It could happen. It doesn't disprove anything.

Your turn. If the fossil record is not a picture book record of macroevolution, what is it? Why is it there? Why would God create such a complex puzzle for us to work out? Tens of thousands of dedicated humans work for as many lifetimes to get the answer and you say they are all wrong? So what's the right answer?

EDIT: I just googled Joggins. Very cool!

[arcura]

Tj3
Then you agree with the modern popular view that the fossil record covers millions of years. I'm surprised, for I thot not.
That is why we keep asking what the fossil record says to you.
Thanks for your answer.
No I'm no interested in what that book says.
Thanks anyway.
Fred

[Tj3]

Yeah, I thought you'd like that word! I don't acknowledge any substantive variants on the big picture.

I have done a great deal of reading and have found many variants. Many scientists are open to being flexible in adapting their views to the latest discoveries.

All biologists DO agree.

Maybe all you talk to.

Well, why does God extinguish His own Creations?

Does he/ Death started with sin.

Rom 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
NKJV

So it is not God who caused the death or extinction of animals, but sin which entered the world when Satan rebelled against God, and when man followed Satan in that rebellion.

Where they on Noah's Ark?

No all animals were on Noah's ark. Animals which could live in water would be in the water.

Yup. The layers are often turned upside down, tangled up, or on their sides. You name it. I learned that in Geology 10.

Good. Because your description was that of a nice neat set of layers exhibiting what you wanted to see in order. It isn't at all like that.

I have no way of knowing what you saw at Joggins, NS (or where that is).

Wow! That surprises me. I never heard of a person who has an interest in fossils who never heard of Joggins before. It is considered one of the top sites in the world for fossils, which is why it was designated a world heritage site.

Do a bit of research. The pictures of the trees are common.

But it's totally possible for a fossilized tree to be unburied and reburied under different sediments. Sure. It could happen. It doesn't disprove anything.

Inside rock. Hmmm.

Your turn. If the fossil record is not a picture book record of macroevolution, what is it? Why is it there?

Already answered. If you have more specific questions, then please quote what I said and indicate what additional detail you would like regarding my comments.

Why would God create such a complex puzzle for us to work out?

Life is complex. Ever studied a "simple" single cell? It is more complex that any chemical refinery on the face of the earth. Why did God create life and the universe with such universal majesty and complexity? Perhaps so that may would have no excuse in recognizing that there is in fact an intelligence behind the design of all creation. I am not going to claim to know the mind of God, though.

Tens of thousands of dedicated humans work for as many lifetimes to get the answer and you say they are all wrong? So what's the right answer?

See, that is what I mean by mis-representing me. I just finished saying the opposite and then you post this mis-reprsenting me. Is mis-representation necessary to prove your points?

You claim that ALL biologists agree. Perhaps that is because you are unaware of the wider diversity of views amongst biologists, and maybe that is why you don't think that other views are acceptable. But in saying so, you are in fact doing what you accuse me of - claiming that all biologists who fail to agree with you are automatically wrong.

Grab yourself a copy of the "Edge of Evolution". Don't worry, it won't stick probes into your brain and force you to do its bidding. I read all sorts of science books from all sorts of varying perspectives which is one reason I know such varying perspectives exist). I highly recommend that you considering broadening your scope and pick up a book or two which may present a view which is divergent to your own.

[Tj3]

Tj3
Then you agree with the modern popular view that the fossil record covers millions of years.

No, that is one view. Other modern scientific views disagree and I must go where the evidence leads.

No I'm no interested in what that book says.

I thought that you said that were interested what leading edge scientific research by leading scientists has to say.

[Akoue]

Behe is not a "leading scientist". In fact, he's something of a joke in the broader scientific community.

Tom, what other LEADING scientists favor your view. It would be preferable if you could point to some who aren't affiliated with the Discovery Institute (which, as you must know given your vast scientific knowledge) is a pariah in the scientific community.

[Akoue]

No, that is one view. Other modern scientific views disagree and I must go where the evidence leads.

According to your understanding of "where the evidence leads", what is the approximate age of the earth?

[Tj3]

Behe is not a "leading scientist". In fact, he's something of a joke in the broader scientific community.

Perhaps in your circles. But I am not sure that may other scientists would be welcomed in your circles either.

It would be preferable if you could point to some who aren't affiliated with the Discovery Institute (which, as you must know given your vast scientific knowledge) is a pariah in the scientific community.

I am sure that ANY scientist that I gave you the name of, or any organization of scientist would be rejected by you. Asking told me that ALL biologists agree. That may true if you take the approach of rejecting all who disagree with you. I don't. I accept and listen to scientists of all opinions because I am interested in truth.

[arcura]

asking
Ye, that would be VERY interesting.
Fred

[Akoue]

Perhaps in your circles. But I am not sure that may other scientists would be welcomed in your circles either.



I am sure that ANY scientist that I gave you the name of, or any organization of scientist would be rejected by you. Asking told me that ALL biologists agree. That may true if you take the approach of rejecting all who disagree with you. I don't. I accept and listen to scientists of all opinions because I am interested in truth.

Yes, yes, that's fine. Now, can you name any scientists not affiliated with the Discovery Institute who take the view you describe?

Ps: For anyone out there who hasn't heard of the Discovery Institute: Academic scientists have obliterated the work it's produced and it is regarded as a complete joke. These aren't my circles: It's been well-publicized.

[vwdieseljunkie]

Humor me

1. I have sat here and read this entire thread from beginning to end in one, continuous sitting. I am absolutely absorbed in the discussion (except for the occasional pissin' matches) and I almost hate that I have reached the most current entry, because that concludes my night's reading on the topic. It's just as well though, I'm really needing a smoke break!

2. From the time that I first read the title of this thread, until my decision to make this post, I kept waiting for the topic of Divine Intervention to pop up, but it never did. Is that not a viable element to the relations between Biblical account of creation and evolution?

3. Does anyone have know of reference in the bible that speaks of what Adam and Eve actually look like? Physical characteristics, anything? I searched and could not find one. For this thread's title's sake, I wan't to propose a spin on things. Preposterous as it may seem, it's a spin, humor me.

a. Genesis 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
b. Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them"

I offer this only because of the idea that man was not descendant from our modern apes, but that our modern apes and humans share common ancestry. And for lack of better example of my thought process, I am using a. and b. as a spin on things. God created man in his image, man and woman, and they began to multiply from the joining of the two that were created. Well, here comes the "sons of god", and correct me if I'm wrong, but they are not "man". Ok, now we have offspring from this union.

Would this not be un-arguably "Divine Intervention" in it's most basic form?

[Akoue]

Humor me

1. I have sat here and read this entire thread from beginning to end in one, continuous sitting. I am absolutely absorbed in the discussion (except for the occasional pissin' matches) and I almost hate that I have reached the most current entry, because that concludes my night's reading on the topic. It's just as well though, I'm really needing a smoke break!

2. From the time that I first read the title of this thread, until my decision to make this post, I kept waiting for the topic of Divine Intervention to pop up, but it never did. Is that not a viable element to the relations between Biblical account of creation and evolution?

3. Does anyone have know of reference in the bible that speaks of what Adam and Eve actually look like? Physical characteristics, anything? I searched and could not find one. For this thread's title's sake, I wan't to propose a spin on things. Preposterous as it may seem, it's a spin, humor me.

a. Genesis 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
b. Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them"

I offer this only because of the idea that man was not decendent from our modern apes, but that our modern apes and humans share common ancestry. And for lack of better example of my thought process, I am using a. and b. as a spin on things. God created man in his image, man and woman, and they began to multiply from the joining of the two that were created. Well, here comes the "sons of god", and correct me if I'm wrong, but they are not "man". Ok, now we have offspring from this union.

Would this not be un-arguably "Divine Intervention" in it's most basic form?

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'd like to offer my thoughts in response, but it would help if you could help me understand one thing a little better (otherwise, I think I may end up veering off-course from what you have in mind): Are you thinking that those who are mentioned in a. and b. are ancestors from whom modern humans have evolved? I think your answer will be yes, but I just want to be sure I'm understanding.

[asking]

Maybe all [biologists] you talk to.

Read mostly or read about. Too many to talk to them all.

I'm not aware of anyone with any real credentials besides Behe and Wells, and even Wells has said he got his PhD in genetics specifically so he could have the credentials to attack evolution. Too bad he didn't get a PhD in zoology or botany. Behe is kind of an embarrassment to his institution, but he's a credit to academic freedom!

I read a review of his book (in the New York Review of Books) and it seemed to say he'd backed down a lot compared to his first book. I tried to read his first book. He's a pretty good stylist, but he's just wrong and misleading about so many things, I couldn't finish it.

Does he/ Death started with sin.

Rom 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
NKJV

So it is not God who caused the death or extinction of animals, but sin which entered the world when Satan rebelled against God, and when man followed Satan in that rebellion.

So you are saying the trilobites sinned?
They lived long before any humans every lived on Earth, so I don't see how you can blame human sin for the demise of the trilobites, poor things.

No all animals were on Noah's ark. Animals which could live in water would be in the water.

So, what about T. rex et al?

... your description was that of a nice neat set of layers exhibiting what you wanted to see in order. It isn't at all like that.

Viewed through time, it IS like that.

It's like opening up a jigsaw puzzle. It's a mess, but once you get it sorted out, the pattern is clear. The pieces fit together AND the picture reinforces that you've got it right. The fossil record is the same. Once you sort out where all the layers are supposed to be, the overall pattern is clear. And in many parts of the world, like the Grand Canyon, you have a continuous record over millions of years with no disentangling necessary. I personally don't think you can get any closer to a miracle of creation than that. But that's just me.

You claim that ALL biologists agree.

They do. But let's stay focused on trying to find out what you think fossils represent.

Why do you think that in ancient times there were only bacteria, and then later, there were eukaryotic cells (the ones with their genes in a nucleus), and later multicellular organisms? Why do you think these organisms appear in that order?

[vwdieseljunkie]

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'd like to offer my thoughts in response, but it would help if you could help me understand one thing a little better (otherwise, I think I may end up veering off-course from what you have in mind): Are you thinking that those who are mentioned in a. and b. are ancestors from whom modern humans have evolved? I think your answer will be yes, but I just want to be sure I'm understanding.

Well, it's a question I have never posed or even put much thought into until this context came up, but have offered merely as an example of how the Bible speaks of an intermingling of what I am guessing to be 'divine' creatures (sons of god, specifically identified as NOT being 'man', or the created 'man') and the created 'man', and there being an offspring from this union. Would said offspring be man, or divine? Either way, doesn't this throw a monkey wrench in what 'man' was originally created to be?

[asking]

I'm confused. What were the giants in the earth?

[asking]

Also, New York originally asked where the daughters came from, since Adam and Eve had sons. Or at least that's what I understood. Is there still a daughter problem?