[Tj3]

Of course you are. You interpret it as a literal statement of fact, they interpret it as an allegory.

I do not interpret it. I let it speak for itself.

[inthebox]

The question, really, is, "How large does a variation have to be in order to call it a difference?".

With regards to the wolf dog example, exactly what NEW GENETIC INFORMATION makes a Chiuhuahua different than a wolf?

Sure there are obvious phenotypic differences in size, color, amount of fur, but they have the similar / same physiology [ cardiac pulmonary gastrointestinal etc.]

To use the automotive analogy:
Most rely on internal combustion engine for power [whether gas or diesal ] but the "evolution" to say a steam or turbine or purely electric power is what makes THE DIFFERENCE. And this difference that we observe, we know is by DESIGN [ thank you engineers] although we also know the market selective factors have caused this "evolution."



Does the house dog have an extra sense, or another chamber in its heart or an extra hemoglobin that the wolf does not have? If so, can these be traced to specific genes or chromosomes?

Because macroevolution rests on mutations being selected to add NEW GENETIC INFORMATION. For example, how did invertebrates "evolve" into vertebrates, or reptiles to mammals? How did the first cell become multicellular? Develop tissues? organ systems?

These cannot be observed or tested - requirements for science.

We can see the evidence as facts, but the interpretation of these facts is where we differ.





G&P

[Akoue]

I do not interpret it. I let it speak for itself.

So ink and wood-pulp talk to you?

[asking]

I do not interpret it. I let it speak for itself.

Well, that's different. Any book speaks for itself, or should. It's quite another thing to say a book is so factual and so complete that it supercedes all other knowledge.

[Akoue]

I do not interpret it. I let it speak for itself.

When Ps.104.5 speaks for itself to you, does it say that the earth doesn't move?

[arcura]

Tj3,
It is obvious to everyone here that I am not making false accusations.
Several time in the last few days you have accused me of saying something I never said.
I am asking you again to PLEASE stop that.
If you do stop there will be no need for me to any more point out your doing so.
Thanks,
Fred

[asking]

With regards to the wolf dog example, exactly what NEW GENETIC INFORMATION makes a Chiuhuahua different than a wolf?

Sure there are obvious phenotypic differences in size, color, amount of fur, but they have the similar / same physiology [ cardiac pulmonary gastrointestinal etc.]

...Does the house dog have an extra sense, or another chamber in its heart or an extra hemoglobin that the wolf does not have? If so, can these be traced to specific genes or chromosomes?

Dogs and wolves have similar physiologies. In fact, all mammals are pretty much as you have described here. They all have similar circulation and pulmonary function, the same set of senses. A sheep brain is physiologically similar to a human brain, though smaller and with less cortex. Now, an alligator has a very different sort of heart, or a turtle. So your standards for what makes a different species are unusually high. You are not talking species, but whole phyla.

So you don't consider macroevolution to have occurred unless an alligator evolves into a dog, say, within your life time?

[arcura]

asking.
That is a great question to ask.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

So ink and wood-pulp talk to you?

No, the Word of God does.

[Akoue]

No, the Word of God does.

Cool. What does it say about Ps.104.5?

[Tj3]

When Ps.104.5 speaks for itself to you, does it say that the earth doesn't move?

Ps 104:5
5 You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,
NKJV

No. This says nothing about whether it orbits the sun. That is where God placed it. No one can move it from where God placed it.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
It is obvious to everyone here that I am not making false accusations.

Fred - you do not speak for the world. Why do you carry on so much?

Several time in the last few days you have accused me of saying something I never said.

Fred, you have said it many time. If you no longer hold to that, that is fine. I accept your current comments as your current beliefs. Why can you not move on? Why must you feel it necessary to harass others?

I am asking you again to PLEASE stop that. This thread has generally been going well - why do you want to get it shut down?

[Akoue]

Ps 104:5
5 You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,
NKJV

No. This says nothing about whether it orbits the sun. That is where God placed it. No one can move it from where God placed it.

And at what point in spacetime did God place it, from which it doesn't move? Because on its face it says that the earth doesn't move (as do the other passages I cited). "It should not be moved forever"--not even by gravitational forces?

[Tj3]

So you don't consider macroevolution to have occurred unless an alligator evolves into a dog, say, within your life time??

Who said anything about a lifetime? That question only arises when macro-evolution is consider an extension of micro-evolution. Micro-evolution can be seen in very short timeframes, whereas macro-evolution has never been seen. But if they are the same, then it raises the question of why we have no evidence of macro-evolution occurring in our lifetime. But the fact is that there is no proof of macro-evolution in any timeframe.

[Tj3]

And at what point in spacetime did God place it, from which it doesn't move? Because on its face it says that the earth doesn't move (as do the other passages I cited). "It should not be moved forever"--not even by gravitational forces?

If you wish to question God's word with your own private understanding/interpretation, perhaps you'd like to answer the questions that God raised with others who felt that qualified to question Him:

Job 38:1-7
38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2 "Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
NKJV

I accept what God says in His word at face value.

In any case, this does seem to be off topic - I suggest a separate thread might be appropriate.

[Akoue]

If you wish to question God's word with your own private understanding/interpretation, perhaps you'd like to answer the questions that God raised with others who felt that qualified to question Him:

I'm not asking God, I'm asking YOU. The verse says that the earth doesn't move--isn't moved, even by gravitational forces. Call this P. The heliocentric model of the solar system holds that the earth does move. Call this not-P.

P and not-P. That's a contradiction. So I take you to hold that the earth doesn't move, since this is what Scripture says. That's fine, if you do; I just wanted to know.

[Tj3]

I'm not asking God, I'm asking YOU. The verse says that the earth doesn't move--isn't moved, even by gravitational forces. Call this P. The heliocentric model of the solar system holds that the earth does move. Call this not-P.

P and not-P. That's a contradiction. So I take you to hold that the earth doesn't move, since this is what Scripture says. That's fine, if you do; I just wanted to know.

You can ask me, but I was not there when he placed the earth on it's foundations either. I just accept what he says in His word. I trust His word. It has never failed me yet. I just read what it says, and what it says in true and in perfect alignment with science.

God placed it where it is. He established where it is and how it is held in place. No one shall move it from where God placed it - do you know anyone who has or can?

Maybe this will help you understand. Just because something is on solid unmoveable foundations does not mean that it's foundation does not move. For example, your house - it has a foundation - it is placed solidly in the ground, and yet the foundation rotates on the earth which revolves around the sun. that does not make the foundation any less solid, or any less unmovable. Though the foundation of your house may be subjected to earthquakes, scientists who have studied the models of the solar system say that the orbit of the earth is perfect for maintaining life. If it were to move either way, we would either freeze or cook. The foundations are established and they have not moved.

To be honest, I don't understand why you have problems with this. It seems abundantly clear. If you see these foundations move, I expect that we will see it on the new if there is time before we all die.

[Akoue]

God placed it where it is. He established where it is and how it is held in place. No one shall move it from where God placed it - do you know anyone who has or can?

You can ask me, but I was not there when he placed the earth on it's foundations either. I just accept what he says in His word. I trust His word. It has never failed me yet.

The verse doesn't say that it won't be moved by "anyone" (that's your insertion); it says it won't be moved. Period. So apparently gravity doesn't move it either. At least, that's what Scripture says, here and in the other verses I have cited.

As I said, it's totally fine with me for you to believe that the earth doesn't move. I just wanted to know. Now we can go back to evolution. As I recall, asking asked you Sunday what you make of the fossil record. Maybe we can get back on track with that.

[Tj3]

The verse doesn't say that it won't be moved by "anyone" (that's your insertion); it says it won't be moved. Period. So apparently gravity doesn't move it either. At least, that's what Scripture says, here and in the other verses I have cited.

As I said, it's totally fine with me for you to believe that the earth doesn't move. I just wanted to know.

Again, it appears to me that you are just being argumentative. As I said, if that foundation that God established ever moves, I am sure that if there is time before we all die, there will be a news bulletin. If you know anyone big and powerful enough to move earth off its foundation, please do let us know.

It appears to me that it takes less faith to simply accept what God's word says (it has never failed yet), than to believe that it is not true. If you believe that the foundation is not solid, then please provide us with some evidence to that effect - what exactly do you think will move the earth?

[Akoue]

maybe this will help you understand. Just because something is on solid unmoveable foundations does not mean that it's foundation does not move. For example, your house - it has a foundation - it is placed solidly in the ground, and yet the foundation rotates on the earth which revolves around the sun. that does not make the foundation any less solid, or any less unmovable. Though the foundation of your house may be subjected to earthquakes, scientists who have studied the models of the solar system say that the orbit of the earth is perfect for maintaining life. If it were to move either way, we would either freeze or cook. the foundations are established and they have not moved.

You could have just posted this edit as a new post. In any event, the verse doesn't say that the foundation doesn't move but that the earth doesn't move.