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lamalolo · Jan 10, 2009, 07:22 PM

Hi there

Thank you guys for all the information this site! I tried to find an answer to my question, but couldn't, so I hope someone can help me...

We are doing a major renovation, both bathrooms and the kitchen in our new 100 year old house. I tried to get prices from licensed plumbers and they were so expensive, and I went with an unlicensed guy, that says that's all he does, he is familiar with codes, etc.

The first time that he told me he was finished with all the drainage work there was only one vent, the main sewer vent, to vent all the new plumbing. From interviewing a few plumbers, I told him I don't think that the kitchen and bathroom downstairs will not pass inspection without being vented separately he added two vents.

But I am still not sure if he did a good job. I am concerned both about passing inspection (which we will need to) and about the plumbing being correct, functioning and long lasting.

I made a simple drawing of what he did. I did not include the clean out but there is at least one, maybe two, I also did not include the traps. What I am mostly worried about is the venting, because he did not do it until I pointed it out, and because of other info I saw online.

The main sewer was existing, but most of everything else is new, because what was there was done wrong or did not work with our new layout.

Would you mind telling what you think about the drainage/venting?

Thanks!

21boat · Jan 10, 2009, 08:27 PM

That's a lot of good venting. The only thing is on the second floor vent for the toilet the toilet has to vented within 5' of the toilet flange a 2" vent is best

The 2nd floor toilet is the issue and the 5' rule should be a 2" . Vent to stack

Signed 21 Boat

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lamalolo · Jan 10, 2009, 09:06 PM

Thank you 21boat! That makes me feel much better, and I really appreciate you taking your time to answer me!

About the 2nd floor toilet, it is more than 5' away, about 7' . Do you think there is some chance it would pass as it is? Do you think we might get venting problems in the future from this if we do not add another vent?

Thank you so much!

lamalolo

21boat · Jan 10, 2009, 09:14 PM

No it shouldn't pass and yes it could be a problem later. But I'm sure the inspector will solve that worry. Sorry, as a tradesmen I don't agree 100% with them all but on this one it's a code in distance for a good reason and it protects you from problems later of slow drainage and clogs
A fix would be a Tee off the 3" with a 2" vent line and tie that into the main vent stack.

Signed 21 Boat

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lamalolo · Jan 10, 2009, 09:31 PM

Thanks a lot 21boat

I will try to convince the plumber to do this, before they come for the inspection on Tuesday. I would just hate to not pass and have to wait more days until we schedule another inspection, and then also the inspector will become more suspicious that the work done is not professionally...

I may be getting to be a bit annoying here, but - if I hadn't asked him to vent the downstairs bath and kitchen separately, do you think there is any chance we would have passed? Feel free not to answer this... this is just me checking if I was being a nag or if I had a good point.

:o

Thank you!

lamalolo

21boat · Jan 10, 2009, 10:32 PM

lamalolo
You are certainly not being a nag at all. This why the site exist. I think I can speak for all the people answering questions here that it is our privilege to help as much as possible and without someone like you the site would not exist. Thank You for being kind.

Yes you were absolutely correct to push on the kitchen sink vent that was the key for the rest of that drainage line to work other wise the shower and the sink would be a problem and it was a 2" line for the 1 1/2 sink which compensates for the shower and the bath sink is picked up on that toilet vent stack
So good going!

Signed 21 Boat

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LaderaPlbg · Jan 11, 2009, 02:22 AM

Hello Lamalolo,

I just had to weigh in on this.

Yes, there is a lot of great quality help here for
homeowners like yourself, however, what's scary to
me is that you entrusted the lives of your family to
someone who is NOT qualified to help you protect
them.

Plumbing systems are a very serious affair...

You see, having a licensed, bonded professional
plumber install your plumbing system is the same as
having the family doctor operate on someone you
love.

Years of schooling, training and additional education
means the licensed plumber is best qualified to
ensure that your home's plumbing systems maintain
clean fresh water and sanitary waste & venting
conditions.

Would you really entrust your child to a guy who
says he "knows" how to operate on a brain, even
though he had no formal education, but he said he
could do it cheaper?

Scary, huh?

Not to be preachy here, but, with a little work, you
CAN find good licensed plumbers willing to work with
you and they WILL get the job right the first time...

Then, you won't have to stress out & spend more
time and money, second guessing their every move.

Remember: Some things in life are worth more
than money - especially the safety of your family &
yourself!

Anthony

Milo Dolezal · Jan 11, 2009, 04:18 AM

Lamalolo: it all depends where you are located. In my area, this would not be vented properly, especially 2nd floor. But in other parts of the country, it is perfectly OK.

speedball1 · Jan 11, 2009, 06:23 AM

But in other parts of the country, it is perfectly OK.

Both Boat and Milo agree that this vent system will fly. But not in The Standard Plumbing Code. Why do I disagree? Let me count the ways. From left to right. I question rather the First floor shower or lavatory are within 5 ' of a vent,( I sure can see why it wouldn't pass Milos code) althouigh wet venting comes into play.
On the upperfloor you are discharging a major fixture past unvented minor ones. The lavatory should have its own vent and the tub should connect to the lavatory drain and be wet vented by it.
Again, in the basement, you're discharging a entire bathroom group past a unvented
Washer station or laundry sink.This, also, should have its own vent. How can anyone say that this is "perfectly OK"? It's a plumbing inspectors worst nightmare! Somebody come back and show me where I'm wrong. Cheers, Tom

massplumber2008 · Jan 11, 2009, 08:02 AM

Hi everyone...

Like Tom said... this simply doesn't meet code... not by individually venting and not by wet venting OR a combination of all the above... ;)

Lamalolo... first, I think you need to talk to your local plumbing inspector and see if WET VENTING is allowed in your area. If it is then I have drawn up a picture of vents required at a MINIMUM... see below.

Important to wet venting is that the lavatory drain/vent needs to be increased to 2" full size until meets other 2" vent upstairs in attic, and that vent will act to vent the toilet and the tub. The way that this gets piped is that you run full size 3" to the toilet and then you branch of the 3" toilet drain with a 3"x2" wye and run that to lavatory sink... as you go by the tub, you branch of this 2" lavatory line with a drain for the tub...then 2" continues up to pick up the lavatory sink and continues full size 2" as mentioned above.

The laundry definitely needs an 1.5" vent. This vent can connect into the lavatory vent at about 48" off finish floor on the 1st floor or it can run parallel to the waste stack and connect into the 3" at 48" above finish floor on the second floor. Either way... you need a vent for the laundry.

You will also want to check to see if MECHANICAL VENTS are allowed in your area... if so they may be useful in venting the laundry area..?

Finally, if wet venting is not allowed in your area and all fixtures MUST BE individually vented then you need to pop back here and let us know so we can draw another drawing up for you... :)

Let us know what you think here...

At below picture vents are marked as DASHED LINES

I also attached another picture of wet venting.. fittings are wrong but principles are same. Use this as a reference only... if need more on this picture let me know. This last picture could only apply to the 2nd floor bathroom..;)

MARK

speedball1 · Jan 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

Like Mark said! Tom

Milo Dolezal · Jan 11, 2009, 10:53 AM

Lamalo, please, post your location and Code you are under so we can give you exact advice on presented vent issue. Thank You.

lamalolo · Jan 11, 2009, 11:38 AM

Hi everyone

I am speechless and thankful for all the response from you guys, thank you so much.

Looking back, I guess that it must have been a mistake to hire this guy.

Redoing the kitchen and bathrooms, we did not intend to change all the plumbing. We were thinking of moving the sink in the second bathroom, and moving the shower and the sink downstairs, not touching the toilets. Then we changed our minds. We also knew that the downstairs was not to code and needed to be brought up to code.

I brought some licensed plumbers to give me prices, and those ran $9000 and up.
A couple of guys came in who are not licensed but work with someone else's license, and they were charging about 4000. And I thought - I don't need someone that pays $1000-$1500 to a licensed plumber for the stamp. Finally I found this guy who said he works for contractors most of the time, and is very knowledgeable about codes, his work always passes inspections the first time. He was charging about $2000 plus materials, and I give him about a third of that after the inspections are passed (should have been more).

Anyway, that might be too much information.

Finally, he ended up changing more than we agreed upon, which I though was great, its better to have newer plumbing, and he wasn't charging me extra.

But then, when I looked around and saw no vents, I started to get worried. I told him about the vents, and he put the kitchen and downstairs toilet vents in.

The even bigger problem is that I noticed some of the venting problems, but not all, and that's without even looking at the drainage and at the supply lines, which I really know practically nothing about. And if venting was done totally wrong, probably the supply lines and the drainage was also done totally wrong.

So now, I have three options:

1) telling him everything that is wrong, asking him to fix it before the inspection (not really possible, since I don't even know everything that is wrong.)

2) waiting for the inspector to tell him everything that is wrong and then have him fix it. I am running the risk of the inspector getting really upset if the job is done really badly.

3) firing the guy and getting a plumber that knows what he's doing to fix the plumbing before the inspection.

Just one more point, I had a feeling that the toilet upstairs will probably need its own vent and I told him that. He said that some inspector's will require it and some won't, so he prefers to have the inspector come in and tell him what he wants, rather than doing it when it might not be required. That was before I asked you guys my question...

By the way, I am from Union county NJ. I don't know what code we are under, and I don't know how to find out.

Any advice would be appreciated...

Thank you so much!

lamalolo

massplumber2008 · Jan 11, 2009, 12:24 PM

Lamalolo...

You could always call the inspector to see what code prevails in your area.

Who pulled the plumbing permit and who will stand for inspection?

You should also know that the drainage and vent work are required to be tested by filling drainage/vent system to the roof vent with water or AIR pumped up to 3-5PSI (need test caps/plugs to do this).

Need more info...

Thanks...

MARK

lamalolo · Jan 11, 2009, 12:34 PM

Hi Mark

We pulled the plumbing permit ourselves, since we are the homeowners we don't need to be licensed... so we are responsible to the inspection, but he will be there at the time of the inspection with us, so that he can fully understand the inspector's issues if he has any.

He does have everything capped with test caps and plugs, and said he tested it all with air and then with water, and he will set up the test again for the inspection. Both for the supply and for the drainage.

I can try to call the inspector on Monday, but we already called him once and he returned a call about a week later, and the inspection is currently set up for Tuesday...

Thank you!

lamalolo

massplumber2008 · Jan 11, 2009, 12:39 PM

Let us know what happens...ok? And when the inspector does call/show up let us know which code prevails.

Thanks you.

Good luck...

MARK

lamalolo · Jan 11, 2009, 12:54 PM

Thank you Mark

I checked our city's website and they give a link to the 2006 national standard plumbing code, phcc.

My drawing is not very good, all I put there is the basic direction of everything, and the vents where I saw them... There are clean outs, traps, and other stuff I probably don't know.
But, the laundry is not vented separately, neither are either of the bath sinks, the toilet upstairs, the shower, etc. I just don't see the vents in the wall.
The plumber said they were wet vented and therefor to code. He also said that about the toilet downstairs and the kitchen sink, but was convinced when I told him I know for a fact that they need to be separately vented in our area, because that is what other licensed local plumbers said.

...

I will definitely post again after the inspection.

The only thing is - do you think I should be careful about even having the inspection the way things currently are?

Thank you!

lamalolo

massplumber2008 · Jan 11, 2009, 01:19 PM

Lamalolo...

I think we can speculate all day and still be wrong. Talk to the inspector and have him look at things. You will NOT be the first homeowner to have issues... ;)

Just have a good attitude as you already seem too and I am sure he will work with you!

I do know that a vent needs to be above the flood level rim of any sink served... right? SO where is the vent off each lavatory? They MUST be PRESENT at each sink... PERIOD!

Keep us posted... please!

MARK

lamalolo · Jan 11, 2009, 06:29 PM

Hi

Just wanted again to say thank you to everyone here helping me with my question. I will definitely keep you all posted after the inspection.

I appreciate all of your advice, and all together it really helped to clear out the picture of what's happening with the plumbing and the plumber... and all :)

Thank you thank you thank you!

lamalolo

speedball1 · Jan 12, 2009, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by lamalolo

Hi

Just wanted again to say thank you to everyone here helping me with my question. I will definitely keep you all posted after the inspection.

I appreciate all of your advice, and all together it really helped to clear out the picture of what's happening with the plumbing and the plumber... and all :)

Thank you thank you thank you!

lamalolo

Please inform us of the outcome. Good luck, Tom