[JoeT777]

Joe,
I believe that the Kingdom of God on earth is different from the Kingdom in Heaven.
The Kingdom on earth is to be a refection of the one in heaven,
“Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
I believe that the earthly kingdom is His Holy Church and it is located wherever followers gather in worship in the many Church buildings build because of the love of God all over the world and thus it is also in the hearts and souls of those worshipers.
I believe that we enter the Kingdom of God on earth and destined for heaven when we are baptized and confirmed in that Holy Church as members thereof.
The priestly Kingdom God told Moses would be his people I believe was later taken away and much later SOMEWHAT restored with the birth, baptism , and confirmation of the Highest of high priests, Jesus Christ, who is now king of heaven's AND earth's kingdom.
The earthly kingdom with him as supreme head has a prime minister (vicar) and earthly princes of that Church called Bishops.
I believe that the Holy Spirit was given as guide to the first princes and He still does so 2000 years later.
I believe that the members of that Kingdom are bothers and sisters of Christ the King and destined for heaven.
I hope and pray that none fall away and all make it to the Heavenly Kingdom where Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think we’re running a parallel race, Fred. I don’t know that I can prove it, but I don't hold that the earthly Kingdom of God is supposed to be a paradise in a temporal sense. That is, not until the end of time when the Kingdom of Heaven is brought to earth. Nor, do I believe there are two Kingdoms, in the way of a division between heaven and earth, instead spiritually ONE; a Kingdom of God’s universal creation.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777,
I agree,
But the problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is the same with the bible.
Those who read and study them are of different ideas and interpretations of them.
Part of the problem is that they are all fragments.
From what I understand none are complete.
A lot of information on them is available at this site:
Educational Site: Dead Sea Scrolls
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

JoeT777,
I agree,
But the problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is the same with the bible.
Those who read and study them are of different ideas and interpretations of them.
Part of the problem is that they are all fragments.
From what I understand none are complete.
A lot of information on them is available at this site:
Educational Site: Dead Sea Scrolls
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred, that's great. You do know that one chapter in Matthew tells us that on one day Christ read the book of Isaiah (I think) and then went out and preached the Kingdom. It’s interesting that the first thing I see on this site is a pesher (commentary) of Isaiah. It might give me some idea of how the Jewish community viewed Isaiah to understand what Christ meant about His Kingdom. - you never know, I might even learn something.

JoeT

[Akoue]

I'll have to get back to you with some Dead Sea Scroll references (I seem to have left it in my office--at last, I hope that's where it is, because it isn't here!). In the meantime you can have a look at:

The Psalms of Solomon (which are similar to the Dead Sea Scroll hymns). Written between 63 and 45 BC.

The Testament of Moses (2nd century BC).

The Psalms of Solomon are especially relevant. There's been some really good work on Jewish apocalyptic literature and early Christianity. You might want to have a look at James VanderKam and Adela Yarbro Collins if you get some time. (VanderKam is a leading Dead Sea Scroll scholar.) There's a good book, edited by VanderKam and William Adler, The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity. There's particularly good stuff in there on Enoch (which was part of the early Christian canon) and its massive influence on the NT and early Fathers.

I'll get back to you with more tomorrow.

[Akoue]

Thanks Fred, that's great. You do know that one chapter in Matthew tells us that on one day Christ read the book of Isaiah (I think) and then went out and preached the Kingdom. It’s interesting that the first thing I see on this site is a pesher (commentary) of Isaiah. It might give me some idea of how the Jewish community viewed Isaiah to understand what Christ meant about His Kingdom. - ya never know, I might even learn something.

JoeT

Fred is right: The DDS are hard to sift through. But, as you say, they give us a lot of insight into the Jewish milieu at the time of Christ's ministry. There was also quite a bit of friction between early Johannine communities and followers of John the Baptist. Raymond Brown's The Community of the Beloved Disciple is quite useful. All this stuff is crucially important for understanding the ways in which the NT talks about the Kingdom. It's intricate, but really illuminating.

[arcura]

JoeT777,
If you do learn something new to you, PLEASE share it here with a new thread.
I'll watch for it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

Akoue,
I'll be looking forward to what you can share with Joe and the rest of us on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred:
We do see the beginnings of the selection of the Twelve in this chapter, a hierarchy is definitely being established. But, I think what’s more important for this topic is that there appears to be a sea change in the mindset of the “Kingdom”; from near to present.

In all of Matthew we see the Kingdom mentioned in every chapter except Chapters 1, 2, 17, 27 & 28; at least in some form. In chapter 3 it is a near at hand thing. In chapter 4 we have two different types of Kingdom’s mention; a very clear rendition of temporal kingdoms ruled by men, and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is indicated as being near at hand only once, in verse 17. However, in verse 23, it is discussed as if it were present. In the remaining chapters of Matthew, for the most part, we see a discussion of the Kingdom as if it were present. I’ve drawn the conclusion, and it may be because of my Catholic prejudices, that we are seeing a Kingdom that was once “near” to one that is present. In either event there is no denying that teaching of the Kingdom was an important part of Christ’s ministry. At the very least Matthew considered the idea of a Kingdom paramount.

What do you think?

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777,
I think that there are two kingdoms spiritually linked.
Before he became man, Jesus was The Word in the kingdom of heaven.
I believe that Kingdom is eternal (had no beginning and has no end to which he added angels and saints) but those of us who are saved are members of the Kingdom of God on earth who become the members of the Heavenly Kingdom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
I think this should be in a new thread. Does not really coinside with the OP's question.

[sndbay]

Joe, I would first say my refer is that of the Kings James Version. And the scripture which I have shown in the posts example
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ made us kings and priest unto God. ( God's representative or viceregent ) So we are a priestly kingdom or a kingdom like Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


These verses go on to say,It is Christ who Revelation 5:12 spoken of being the Lamb being WORTHY.. to receive power, riches wisdom strength honour glory and blessings.

AND Note the chief corner stone in bold text in the following verses of Ephesians
Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the mist of you.
The same type of refer is shown in Matthew and John when it is acknowledged that with the intervention of the Spirit, the Kingdom of God is within the mist of you.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

I believe scripture is telling us that God's Kingdom is in the mist of the Holy Spirit.

`child of God

[arcura]

450donn
I should have thought of that
Fred

[JoeT777]

Joe, I would first say my refer is that of the Kings James Version. And the scripture which I have shown in the posts example
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ made us kings and priest unto God. (God's representative or vice-regent) So we are a priestly kingdom or a kingdom like Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

No, I don't think so. Try reading it again. Reading verses 4 through 8 we see that the speaker is Christ. If we assume that the speaker is John, then we have a problem. And it arises in verse 8; “I am the Alpha and Omega … “ We know that John is not the Α or Ω (the beginning and the end). The 'us' is the person(s), (or spirit(s) - presumably Christ), from which John received the message. Christ has done these things; he's washed our sins, made a Kingdom which contains priests – but we aren't priests unless we've had hands laid on us. Do you not see the resemblance to Ex 19:6, “And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation

I think the Douay-Rheims makes this clearer; “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father.” From Christ, who is the witness, prince of earthly kings, has made us a Kingdom. The Kingdom is made of all of us – no distinction between heavenly and earthly occupants. Furthermore (or AND) this Kingdom contains priests to God.

Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These are the saints in heaven, the Church Triumphant, offering to Christ prayers. The Douay-Rheims renders vese 10;” And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.” Again, a reference back to the promises made to Moses in Ex 19:6.

These verses go on to say,It is Christ who Revelation 5:12 spoken of being the Lamb being WORTHY.. to receive power, riches wisdom strength honour glory and blessings.

Agreed, in verses 11 through 14 we hear thousands and thousands of voices of the Church Triumphant praising Christ.

AND Note the chief corner stone in bold text in the following verses of Ephesians
Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Please refer back to my comments made yesterday (link) The meaning behind "corner stone" has been understood down through the ages with those who are in the industry.

In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the midst of you.

A Pharisee is one of a large group of Hebrews. Christ is saying that the Kingdom is within your group of Hebrews. Why? Again the Jewish nation considered itself the Kingdom of God as was promised to Moses. At the time, Christ's church was not considered separate from Judaism. Thus the Kingdom is within the nation of Jews.

The same type of refer is shown in Matthew and John when it is acknowledged that with the intervention of the Spirit, the Kingdom of God is within the mist of you.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

I believe scripture is telling us that God's Kingdom is in the mist of the Holy Spirit.

`child of God

That's a far stretch. John is clearly referring to Christ. Because in the next verse we see that John the Baptist say, “The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose;” A verse traditionally (anybody's tradition) understood to be a reference to Christ.

Persevering,

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
You point to 450donn was well made.
According to donn's post Where on earth is the Kingdom Jesus said he was going to establish or did He abandon that intent?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

No, I don't think so. Try reading it again. Reading verses 4 through 8 we see that the speaker is Christ. If we assume that the speaker is John, then we have a problem. And it arises in verse 8; “I am the Alpha and Omega … “ We know that John is not the Α or Ω (the beginning and the end). The 'us' is the person(s), (or spirit(s) - presumably Christ), from which John received the message. Christ has done these things; he's washed our sins, made a Kingdom which contains priests – but we aren't priests unless we've had hands laid on us. Do you not see the resemblance to Ex 19:6, “And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation


JoeT

Take the verse Revelation 1:11 which does indeed confirm the message was given to John by Christ. John was to write down and deliver this message to the seven churches.. John was in the ( Spirit realm) according to verse 10 when he was in the mist of Christ, and he saw what was being shown to him and told to write it down.

Rev 1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So we can go back to verse 1:4 and read "quote John to the seven churches" It is John's delivery to the seven church the message from Christ. Verse 1:11 explains where John received the message from Christ. And verse 4 saying from HIM meaning Christ"] The wording unto you, means in the mist of you from Christ.. which was, means it was given to John... which is to come, means John's deliver of this message.

To end the 4th verse the last line also tells us, this message also comes from the seven Spirits which are before the His throne, meaning the seven eyes refer in 5:12 power, riches, wisdom, strength, honour, glory, and blessing. [/B]

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Now verse 5 goes on to say.. And (also) from Jesus Christ, who is Faithful Witness...ect

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

John is talking to the seven churches andthey are told that Christ made them all to be kings and priests in the mist of His Father which to "THE FATHER" be glory and dominion forever and ever Amen..

[sndbay]

Originally Posted by sndbay
Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These are the saints in heaven, the Church Triumphant, offering to Christ prayers. The Douay-Rheims renders vese 10;” And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.” Again, a reference back to the promises made to Moses in Ex 19:6.

JoeT

This book of Revelation remains to be John's visit to the Spiritual realm and it is what John was told to write down.. Revelation means to reveal... This revealed truth is what John was shown of The Lords Day.. (Revelation 5:2 And I saw is John seeing) verse after verse is John saying I saw, I beheld, I heard, I looked

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

[sndbay]

Originally Posted by sndbay
In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the midst of you.

A Pharisee is one of a large group of Hebrews. Christ is saying that the Kingdom is within your group of Hebrews. Why? Again the Jewish nation considered itself the Kingdom of God as was promised to Moses. At the time, Christ's church was not considered separate from Judaism. Thus the Kingdom is within the nation of Jews.

JoeT

The Pharisee are Jews ...
The Jews spoke hebrew language.... Saul /Paul was a Jew that became a chosen vessel by God.... The Jews of Judah kept their Hebrew brothers and sisters from others tribes as slaves which was against God's wishes.... The Jews did not accept Christ or His teachings.... The Jews wanted Christ died.

Luke 17:20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal
With God.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Note that no one amount the people at the feast dared to speak of Christ... Ask yourself who were the people at the feast? Were these people that feared the Jews also the people who follow Christ?
John 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of Him for fear of the Jews.

Getting back to what Jesus said to the Pharisee "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation" So the kingdom was not something seen by the eye of man "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! " but rather it was Jesus who said for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Again not seen but within you ... I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is with us. The Holy Spirit was with Christ.. The Kingdom of God is the realm of Spiritual connection that is in the mist of the fellowship that walks in Christ here on earth.


Romans 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

1 Corinthian 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 16:7-14

[arcura]

sndbay,
At the time Jesus said that the Kingdom could not be observed, it could not be seen.
BUT...
After he established His Church on earth it could be and is observable with priests and bishops world wide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[Maggie 3]

Joe This is the way I see The Kingdom of God. When Jesus came and died on the
Cross He made way for the Holy Spirit, that activates the creative word and relates, it
That which is created. He inspired the Scriptures and empowers God's people. He takes the things of Jesus and brings them to our remembrance. "John 16:8 tells us that
He convicts the world "of sin, and righteousness, and of judgment." All three persons
of the Godhead are eternal and has existed forever. Always the Father loved the Son and the Son loved and served the Father. From that relationship the Spirit of God
{ Holy Spirt ] came into being. They all three have existed from before there was
anything that could begin, three distinct Persons all functioning as one. They all work together to bring about the Kingdom od God. The Father the Creator the first the
cause of everything. Primary thought of what has been and will be created.
The Son the expresson of God, the "only begotten" of the Father. read John 14:9
The Son of God is our redeemer and agent of our creation. The Holy Spirit
who brings us all truth to us and activates the creative word. I am telling you this
because you need to understand and know the beginning before you can understand the
Kingdom of God, and how to get there. At Jesus baptism the Father spoke from
heaven, the Son was fulfilling all righteousness and the Spirit descended upon the
Son like a dove. Matthew 3:16. All three persons of the Trinity were present.
We will understand the Trinity more clearly some day. The Godhead work together
they are all One but three persons doing their work for the Kingdom.We
must be borned again of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3
Our first birth was our human birth. The second birth was when we received Jesus to cleanse
from our sin and making Him the Lord of our life. This enables us individual to be
re-created and joined with God's Spirit the Holy Spirit.
This enable us to have the spiritual vision necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God. When we are born again we can see God and be part of it, But Gods Kingdom
is only for spiritual beings. Paul said "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to Him: nor can he know them, because they
Are spiritually discerned. 1Cor.2:4 So access to this kingdom is gained only though
The new birth by the Spirit of God. The Kingdom of God is eternal. It is a place where
All Christians ultimately will dwell. At this time it is an invisible Kingdom in our midst.
Wherever there are those who honor the King, and wherever the Spirit of the King is,
There is the Kingdom od God. The Kingdom of God is with in us, and that gives us His
Power to His work and overcome satan in our life. There is a heaven we will go to
When our work is finish where we will have new bodies we will have total communication
And fellowship " He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away ever tear from their eyes
there shall be no more death, nor sorrow nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for
the former things have all passed away." Rev21:3-4