[tomder55]

Why should they respond to constant attack from Gaza ,since they disengaged from Gaza ,in a proportional way ? I would turn a block where a rocket was launched into a parting lot... not just the house .

As I pointed out (reading comprehension is good ) Israel indiscriminantly launching rockets into Gaza one at a time would be a proportional response . Don't give me sob stories about civilian deaths while Hamas uses the civilians in Gaza as human shields.

[Dare81]

Why should they respond to constant attack from Gaza ,since they disengaged from Gaza ,in a proportional way ? I would turn a block where a rocket was launched into a parting lot...not just the house .

As I pointed out (reading comprehension is good ) Israel indiscriminantly launching rockets into Gaza one at a time would be a proportional response . Don't give me sob stories about civilian deaths while Hamas uses the civilians in Gaza as human shields.

Maybe a little history lesson is in order

Palestinians through the Oslo Accords, have already agreed to recognise Israel in 78% of what is historically their homeland. All they are asking for is the remaining 22% on which Israel is building settlements. Right now the negotiations are only about the 22% land and the right of refugees, both of which are unacceptable to Israel, which wants to keep the settlements and give no rights to refugees.

The ceasefire was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling blockade, which Israel did not do. So Hamas threw some symbolic rockets. People are eating pet food, grass and scrounging the trash. Since the Israelis stopped the cash flow, no one has any money to pay salaries or go shopping even when there is food. Two months before the end of the ceasefire, Israelis invaded and attacked, killing several Palestinians. Hamas demanded a better truce at the end of it, no invasions, no blockade and ceasefire in West Bank in return for no rockets. No Israeli died in the weeks preceding the ceasefire until 27th December, after which 4 Israelis have died from rockets. In the previous 7 years, 17 Israelis have died from rockets. While 5000 Palestinians have died from military incursions, not counting the last month.

So who's the terrorist??

[tomder55]

The right of return is a non-starter . Arafat rejected Camp David because of that proposal . Both sides know it is a poison-pill. The fact is that if Israel returned completely to pre-1968 borders the Palestinians would not be satisfied . The issue is Israel's right to exist which no Palestinian in leadership has recognized.

[tomder55]

Hamas would not have any political authority at all but for the Oslo Accords and ensuing agreements. Yet they call honoring any of the Accords “treasonous”. They are the main stumbling block between Israel and PA achieving any kind of peace agreement.

In fact, Hamas is now launching another civil war against PA Fatah members in Gaza.

Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators' | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post


Like I said ;the people of Gaza have to take out Hamas for any chance of normalcy.

[Dare81]

Arafat rejected Camp David because of that proposal

Where do you get your information from zionist.com.You need to do a little more researh then that.Let me point you towards an unbaised point of view
Was Arafat the problem? - By Robert Wright - Slate Magazine

[tomder55]

Lol unbiased and Slate Magazine should not be said in the same sentence. The 'right of return' is a non-starter . The Palestinians know this and that is why they leave it on the table. They are not interested in any solution that leaves a State of Israel. It is written in all their charters .

I would propose the nations that had control of the West Bank and Gaza before 1967 should take possession of them again . But even they don't want the Palestinians.I'm not alone apparently :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

You cannot be in favor of a 2 state solution and support Hamas simultaneously .Hamas does not want a 2 state solution ;they want Israel exterminated .

[excon]

Hello again:

Remember the disconnect I was talking about?? One side says the wall is black. The other side says it's white... Proof?? History?? Reality?? They don't matter anymore.

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

excon

[Dare81]

Hello again:

Remember the disconnect I was talking about????? One side says the wall is black. The other side says it's white...... Proof????? History????? Reality???? They don't matter anymore.

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

excon

Exactly what proof , history and reality are you talking about , my bad I forgot that's your version of the truth and history. TRUTH and HISTORY are RELATIVE.

I don't hate anybody. I think Jews have the right to live in there land peacefully, and I think Palestinians have the same right . I also think hamas is a terrorist organization, but I also think that some of the Israelis over on the other side should be tried of war crimes. Ariel sharon( case and point).

Rather then talking about a solution for this problem you can up with garbage statement that all the people who support the Palestinian cause must hate Jews

[Dare81]

lol unbiased and Slate Magazine should not be said in the same sentence. The 'right of return' is a non-starter . The Palestinians know this and that is why they leave it on the table. They are not interested in any solution that leaves a State of Israel. It is written in all their charters .

I would propose the nations that had control of the West Bank and Gaza before 1967 should take possession of them again . But even they don't want the Palestinians.I'm not alone apparently :
washingtonpost.com

You cannot be in favor of a 2 state solution and support Hamas simultaneously .Hamas does not want a 2 state solution ;they want Israel exterminated .

So you say that Hamas does not support the 2 state solution. You think Hamas is firing rocket over into Israel because it wants to take over Israel.

Okay now lets come out of your psudo relality and focus on the facts.

1. The ceasefire of the last 6 months was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling economic siege imposed since 2006, when Hamas won the elections.


The blockade was never lifted, i.e. Israeli promises were null and void from day one. Hamas promised to stop its suicide bombing. There has been no suicide bombing.

2. The last ceasefire was announced by Hamas, Israel stopped short of claiming it a ceasefire. The IDF broke the ceasefire two months ago by targeting the tunnels that were being used by the Gazans to smuggle in food and medicines as well as fuel. The Israeli press admitted they invaded Gaza and killed several Palestinians.




3. Hamas asked for a truce on better terms i.e. no more attacks on Palestinians, lifting the blockade and no more assassinations. They refused to continue the ceasefire as is, because with the blockade, it was pointless. What were Gazans to do? Starve? Israel refused. They wanted a truce on better terms for themselves. Considering they already impose a complete blockade on Palestine, what are these better terms??

4. On the day that the current conflict started, last Saturday, no Israeli had died of rocket attacks in the intervening weeks [several Palestinians had died due to accidents].

(But in some ways the elections have made it impossible for officials like Mr. Barak not to react, because the public has grown anxious and angry over the rocket fire, which while causing no recent deaths and few injuries is deeply disturbing for those living near Gaza)

Four Israelis have died since [including one Israeli Arab]. 435 Palestinians have died, 2000 are injured [as I write, the Palestinians are still under attack] and the humanitarian crisis still goes on, the bombing continues and refugees are still waiting for justice.

As I watch the unfolding of the pseudo-reality that passes for news, I feel a strange epiphany. Gaza is the last bastion, not only for the Palestinian state, but also for the two state solution. In a strangely self destructive manner, Israel is destroying all future possibility of a two state solution. It will have no choice, if it defeats Hamas, but to inherit the Palestinians. In a one state solution.


Her are some interesting FACTS NOT PSEUDO FACTS


In addition to running out of food for 750,000 Palestinians, about half of Gaza’s population, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said it would be forced after Thursday to suspend cash assistance to 98,000 poor Gazans because of a shortage of currency in the territory.

Barack acknowledged in the radio interview that the violence was touched off by the Israeli raid, which the army said destroyed a tunnel at the frontier that Gaza militants dug and could have been used to try to seize Israeli soldiers.

More than a dozen Palestinian fighters have been killed in in the past two weeks. Several Israelis have been slightly wounded by dozens of rockets.

[tomder55]

I'm not impressed by casualty figures. It is a ridiculous proposition to say that war should be fought in a tit-for- tat proportional basis.
If America played by those rules in World War II, then by the end we would have been guilty , since German, Italian and Japanese forces were on the defensive and far less lethal than the Allies.

I got to love this selective outrage. The Russians laid siege of the mostly Muslim Grozny at the beginning of this decade ;totally destroying it ,and the world never once stood together in collective outrage.The losses among the city's population were never counted.

But let Israel have the audacity to defend itself when attacked then it makes the headlines and garners world wide condemnation.

Hamas 'coup' in Gaza made them the government there terrorist group or not. If they choose to continue to wage war against Israel then they should not be surprised when Israel wages war against them.


Why should Israel lift a blockade so long as rockets continue to get smuggled into Gaza ? The missiles launched at the rate of 80 per day before the Israeli actions were launching increasingly larger payloads and covering larger areas of Israel.

[Dare81]

I'm not impressed by casualty figures. It is a rediculous proposition to say that war should be fought in a tit-for- tat proportional basis.
If America played by those rules in World War II, then by the end we would have been guilty , since German, Italian and Japanese forces were on the defensive and far less lethal than the Allies.

I gotta love this selective outrage. The Russians laid siege of the mostly Muslim Grozny at the beginning of this decade ;totally destroying it ,and the world never once stood together in collective outrage.The losses among the city's population were never counted.

But let Israel have the audacity to defend itself when attacked then it makes the headlines and garners world wide condemnation.

Hamas 'coup' in Gaza made them the government there terrorist group or not. If they choose to continue to wage war against Israel then they should not be suprised when Israel wages war against them.


Why should Israel lift a blockade so long as rockets continue to get smuggled into Gaza ? The missiles launched at the rate of 80 per day before the Israeli actions were launching increasingly larger payloads and covering larger areas of Israel.

Did you not read my reply, this war was not started by hamas it was started by Isreal.

As for virgins in paradise have a busy day. I doubt you even know the first thing about islam. Educate yourself before making fun of it.Ignorance is no excuse.

[excon]

Did you not read my reply, this war was not started by hamas it was started by Isreal.

Hello again, Dare:

You're RIGHT. Israel started this war because Hamas ended the truce.

So, is the wall black or white?

excon

[Dare81]

Hello again, Dare:

You're RIGHT. Israel started this war because Hamas ended the truce.

So, is the wall black or white?

excon

The ceasefire was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling blockade, which Israel did not do. So Hamas threw some symbolic rockets

You tell me is it black or white.

We can do this all day long

[excon]

So Hamas threw some symbolic rockets

Hello again, Dare:

They wouldn't have been so symbolic if they landed on YOUR house.

Look, if HISTORY, or our versions of it, IS the guideline for peace, it'll NEVER happen...

One side or the other, has to make a breakthrough. It's possible. I think Obama will do it.

You're right. We can talk AT each other all day... Rational discussions about the topic are rare. But, if you want to hear one, go here:

Townhall.com Audio Player. The discussion starts at about 19:30.

You'll hear Glen Greenwald, a very smart lefty, left of left, and Hugh Hewitt, a righty, right of Genghis Kahn.

excon

[tomder55]

Egypt blocked supply routes through the Philadelphia corridor into Gaza . Wonder why Hamas was not launching rockets into Sinai ?

[tomder55]

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

[NeedKarma]

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

Couldn't one find pro-demonstrations for pretty much any group on YouTube? Not sure what that proves.

[Dare81]

Hello again, Dare:

They wouldn't have been so symbolic if they landed on YOUR house.

Look, if HISTORY, or our versions of it, IS the guideline for peace, it'll NEVER happen....

One side or the other, has to make a breakthrough. It's possible. I think Obama will do it.

You're right. We can talk AT each other all day.... Rational discussions about the topic are rare. But, if you want to hear one, go here:

Townhall.com Audio Player. The discussion starts at about 19:30.

You'll hear Glen Greenwald, a very smart lefty, left of left, and Hugh Hewitt, a righty, right of Genghis Kahn.

excon

Good discussiion. Thanks for pointing me to the link.

[Dare81]

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

So by your logic everybody who supports the isrealis cause must hate muslims. How asinine is that

[tomder55]

Couldn't one find pro-demonstrations for pretty much any group on youtube?"

Its' what the protester was saying that was relevant to the point.


Go back to the oven. You need a big oven, that's what you need."