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Socks · Jan 4, 2009, 11:43 AM

If Jesus left, and said he would come back...

And if jesus was both simultaneously god, and the holy spirit...

Doesn't this mean that all those three things left back then... and still hasn't come back?

N0help4u · Jan 4, 2009, 11:48 AM

Physically Jesus left but he left the Holy Spirit and they are all present in the spiritual. Jesus left bodily but is here with us.

450donn · Jan 4, 2009, 11:53 AM

John 14:26
But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in My mane. He will teach you all things and bring to your remeberence all that I said.

jakester · Jan 4, 2009, 12:33 PM

Socks -

The Trinity is that God exists in three distinct persons: God the father, the Son (Christ), and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God). Therefore, to say that Christ is the Holy Spirit would be incorrect since the bible is saying that they are not the same persons.

Look, many people have attempted to delineate how this is possible so I couldn't begin to do that here.

I'm curious, though, are you asking because you are struggling to understand the statements in the bible about the Holy Spirit and Christ leaving or are you just simply asking a question in jest, trying to insinuate that Christians are stupid for believing this stuff? I'm thinking it's the latter but do correct me if I am wrong.

arcura · Jan 4, 2009, 03:26 PM

jakester.
I also would like to see the answer to that,
Fred

homesell · May 17, 2009, 02:46 PM

No reply from socks. That stinks.

belovedgift · May 23, 2009, 02:07 PM

Absolutely not. Jesus was both led by and filled with the Holy Spirit during his earthly ministry,and in the latter part of the gospel of John you will find that he breathed the Spirit on the disciples before his assention. He promised never to leave us or forsake us.

DMRH · May 23, 2009, 05:50 PM

Most of you would know that this "Trinity" thing is a Catholic invention & does not appear in scripture.

MAT 16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

We know by the above verses that The Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit appeared all separately at the same time proving to the reader that they where not all one. A team of three speaking as one, yes.

If Jesus was Jehovah & the holy spirit at the same time it meant he was lying in the following verse.

MAR 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

So we know that Jesus clearly separates himself from his Father as we all should do ourselves. The Father & Son clearly speak as one but are never shown to be one. If they where as Trinitarians claim, one would expect to find this mentioned in scripture.

To suggest such a doctrine borders on Blasphemy in the opinions of many outside the Catholic faith.

God bless

Tj3 · May 23, 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by DMRH

Most of you would know that this "Trinity" thing is a Catholic invention & does not appear in scripture.

MAT 16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

We know by the above verses that The Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit appeared all separately at the same time proving to the reader that they where not all one. A team of three speaking as one, yes.

Then you do not understand what the doctrine of the trinity is. The doctrine of the trinity is NOT Catholic, and it is found in scripture. I have discussed and debated the issue many times, and have no issue with doing so again. There is no doctrine taught more clearly in scripture.

If Jesus was Jehovah & the holy spirit at the same time it meant he was lying in the following verse.

MAR 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

When Jesus said that, He was here on earth in the flesh as aman, having humbled Himself to live as one of us, dependent upon the Father.

Phil 2:7-9
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

Also, the fact that Jesus willing chose to humble Himself and thus did not know the exact date at that time does not in any way take away from the omniscience of God, since the Father knew the date and time.

So we know that Jesus clearly separates himself from his Father as we all should do ourselves. The Father & Son clearly speak as one but are never shown to be one. If they where as Trinitarians claim, one would expect to find this mentioned in scripture.

Who are the three persons in Isaiah 48:16-17?

arcura · May 23, 2009, 10:20 PM

Tj3,
On the doctrine of The Trinity, I agree with you 100%
Fred

adam7gur · May 24, 2009, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by DMRH

Most of you would know that this "Trinity" thing is a Catholic invention & does not appear in scripture.

MAT 16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

We know by the above verses that The Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit appeared all separately at the same time proving to the reader that they where not all one. A team of three speaking as one, yes.

If Jesus was Jehovah & the holy spirit at the same time it meant he was lieing in the following verse.

MAR 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

So we know that Jesus clearly separates himself from his Father as we all should do ourselves. The Father & Son clearly speak as one but are never shown to be one. If they where as Trinitarians claim, one would expect to find this mentioned in scripture.

To suggest such a doctrine borders on Blasphemy in the opinions of many outside the Catholic faith.

God bless

Is Jesus Christ God for you? Do you believe that He came in flesh?
The deity of Jesus and the so called Trinity are definetaly not Catholic or even Christianity's teaching.It started from the Jews by aknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God and by saying so someone confesses that the Son is equal to the Father and that's why the Pharissees killed Him!
If you do not believe that He is equal to the Father, and that simply means that He is God, then this is the spirit of the antichrist that John speaks about in his epistle!

DMRH · May 25, 2009, 03:51 AM

Ok guys. With love & care I detect a challenge. Discussion is healthy as long as its above-board. I will place some of the many cards on the table so-to-speak in order to demonstrate what the scriptures prove.

Many that believe in the Trinity doctrine use "1 John 5:7" as the basis of fact. It simply says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Because this passage declares "these three are one," Trinity believers seek to convince us that this means that all three are one single solitary God with all power, yet three separate beings at the same time.

So, does this theology carry in the Word? Looking to Matthew 19:5-6, we see, "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh..." Using the worlds theological definition of the Trinity that states when using the term, "these three are one" must mean one God 100% in three beings. We must also assume that once a man and woman join in marriage, they too become one single solitary person yet "mysteriously" two beings because this passage uses the same theology. One simply can't pick when they want to apply this theory. Its all or none.

The Word also states in John 10:30, " I and my Father are one." So I ask, where does this leave the Holy Spirit since He is not mentioned? The trinity theology is again proven wrong by the mere use of the biblical jurisprudence necessitated in Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

God bless

Tj3 · May 25, 2009, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by DMRH

Ok guys. With love & care I detect a challenge. Discussion is healthy as long as its above-board. I will place some of the many cards on the table so-to-speak in order to demonstrate what the scriptures prove.

Why don't you first start by answering the question that I asked:

Who are the three persons in Isaiah 48:16-17?

Many that believe in the Trinity doctrine use "1 John 5:7" as the basis of fact. It simply says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Because this passage declares "these three are one," Trinity believers seek to convince us that this means that all three are one single solitary God with all power, yet three separate beings at the same time.

I actually almost never use that verse. There is so much more in scripture from Genesis to Revelation that speaks more clearly of the trinity that I rarely find the need to go to that verse. In fact I find that those who oppose the trinity bring it up more often, just as you have.

The Word also states in John 10:30, " I and my Father are one." So I ask, where does this leave the Holy Spirit since He is not mentioned?

Very weak argument. If I introduce my daughter to someone as my child, does that mean that I am disowning my son because I did not mention him? Come on, surely you have stronger points than this.

Again, please tell us, who are the three persons in Isaiah 48:16-17?

arcura · May 25, 2009, 09:28 PM

I must agree with Adam and Tj3 on this.
The reality of the trinity of God is found in both Old and New Testaments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · May 25, 2009, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by DMRH

Ok guys. With love & care I detect a challenge. Discussion is healthy as long as its above-board. I will place some of the many cards on the table so-to-speak in order to demonstrate what the scriptures prove.

Many that believe in the Trinity doctrine use "1 John 5:7" as the basis of fact. It simply says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Because this passage declares "these three are one," Trinity believers seek to convince us that this means that all three are one single solitary God with all power, yet three separate beings at the same time.

So, does this theology carry in the Word? Looking to Matthew 19:5-6, we see, "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh..." Using the worlds theological definition of the Trinity that states when using the term, "these three are one" must mean one God 100% in three beings. We must also assume that once a man and woman join in marriage, they too become one single solitary person yet "mysteriously" two beings because this passage uses the same theology. One simply can't pick and choose when they want to apply this theory. Its all or none.

The Word also states in John 10:30, " I and my Father are one." So I ask, where does this leave the Holy Spirit since He is not mentioned? The trinity theology is again proven wrong by the mere use of the biblical jurisprudence necessitated in Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

God bless

I see a good ground for a discussion so I will try to follow you.

So what does the Word say about it?
Let's see the first of all commandments, the Shema.
The translation is '' Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one '' but let's see how the Hebrew text goes ''YHVH ELOHIM YHVH ECHAD''.
Elohim is plural for El which means God so Elohim means Gods and echad means united one.To say absolute one the Hebrew word is yachid.
The union of a man and a woman is an echad , so is the union of night and day.But to say your only son f.e. that would be a yachid.
So the first of all commandments goes '' Hear O Israel, the Lord your Gods is a united one'' more or less.
It is written in the Word that no one can see God and live, yet there are people like Abraham,Jacob,Moses,Daniel,Isaiah and more who testify that they saw God and lived, so who did the see?
They saw the Word preincarnated and they saw the Spirit that came upon people like a fog.They could not pretend that what they saw was not a God, so those people and the people of Israel in general came in touch with The Word , the Spirit and the Father and they realized that all those three persons are Gods, but God does not want them to believe that there are many Gods so He says in my words '' everything that you have realized that is a God are not many Gods but a united one''.
And of course there not many Gods but only one because the Father gave birth to the Son and His Spirit also comes out from the Father, so everything comes out from the Father, that's why Paul says that there is only one God for us , the Father.Yes the Father is the one God that started everything.He gave birth to His Son, the Word and it is God's will it is as the Word says good that everything gives birth to its own kind, so God cannot give birth to something that is not God Himself as much as I cannot give birth to something that is not human.
This is exactly how Eve was born out from Adam , because when something comes out of something that is a birth.Adam and Eve were not counted two before God anymore although they were two persons.

arcura · May 25, 2009, 10:37 PM

Adam, that was very good.
Put keep in mind that The Word of God is eternal just as is the God The Father and the Holy Spirit of the triune God.
John 1: 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And of course the author of life is the Holy Spirit as mentioned elsewhere.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell · May 25, 2009, 10:37 PM

Acts 5:3, Peter tells Ananias that he(Ananias) has lied to the Holy Spirit. In verse 5, referring to the same incident, Peter tells Ananias that he has lied to God.
Colossians 1:15-19 Paul tells us that:
1. Jesus is the image of the invisible God
2. All the fullness of deity is in Christ
3. ALL things were made by Him(Jesus) and FOR Him (Jesus)
4. All things in the Universe(visible and invsible) are sustained by Jesus.
Number 3 is significant in that the "throne of God" described in Rev 4:1-11 was made BY Jesus and was made FOR Jesus. If the very throne of God was made for Jesus, that pretty much says it all(as do number 1,2, and 4.)

arcura · May 25, 2009, 11:06 PM

Jeff thanks for that.
You mentioned a couple of points that I had not contemplated such as the very throne of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Tj3 · May 26, 2009, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

Acts 5:3, Peter tells Ananias that he(Ananias) has lied to the Holy Spirit. In verse 5, referring to the same incident, Peter tells Ananias that he has lied to God.
Colossians 1:15-19 Paul tells us that:
1. Jesus is the image of the invisible God
2. All the fullness of deity is in Christ
3. ALL things were made by Him(Jesus) and FOR Him (Jesus)
4. All things in the Universe(visible and invsible) are sustained by Jesus.
Number 3 is significant in that the "throne of God" described in Rev 4:1-11 was made BY Jesus and was made FOR Jesus. If the very throne of God was made for Jesus, that pretty much says it all(as do number 1,2, and 4.)

Good points. Another good one is:

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

Triund · May 26, 2009, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by DMRH

Ok guys. With love & care I detect a challenge. Discussion is healthy as long as its above-board. I will place some of the many cards on the table so-to-speak in order to demonstrate what the scriptures prove.

Many that believe in the Trinity doctrine use "1 John 5:7" as the basis of fact. It simply says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Because this passage declares "these three are one," Trinity believers seek to convince us that this means that all three are one single solitary God with all power, yet three separate beings at the same time.

So, does this theology carry in the Word? Looking to Matthew 19:5-6, we see, "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh..." Using the worlds theological definition of the Trinity that states when using the term, "these three are one" must mean one God 100% in three beings. We must also assume that once a man and woman join in marriage, they too become one single solitary person yet "mysteriously" two beings because this passage uses the same theology. One simply can't pick and choose when they want to apply this theory. Its all or none.

The Word also states in John 10:30, " I and my Father are one." So I ask, where does this leave the Holy Spirit since He is not mentioned? The trinity theology is again proven wrong by the mere use of the biblical jurisprudence necessitated in Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

God bless

The verse, Matthew 19:6 "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.", tells us that man and woman had been joined together by God. In other words, they did not come together on their own. God brought them together. Where as 1 John 5:7 does not tell us "what God has joined". Therefore these two "theologies" can not be overlayed on each other and tried to make an analogy to prove Trinity fake.

Other than Trinity there are many things in the Bible which are beyond human comprehension. God has not given humans all the understanding and all the knowledge. HE discloses the knowledge to man bit by bit. Just hang in there, one day HE would disclose the whole concept of Trinity i.e.why is it there and how does it work. We all are searching and you are welcomed to join us.