[De Maria]

I see nothing there that says that those seeking have already found Him. That would not make logical sense.

One does not seek for something they know doesn't exist, do they?

I asked:

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

And you answered:

Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV

I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.

Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.

My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.
And faith is required for salvation.

[Akoue]

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother...they have the same mother. AND....when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that i should, my faith is not active....kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me...I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion...so you should believe the Bible.

But notice that in the verse I quoted above, James is saying not that faith without works is dead, that it is not a living faith. He clearly and unequivocally affirms that we are not justified by faith alone: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone".

[De Maria]

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother...they have the same mother. AND....when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that i should, my faith is not active....kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me...I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion...so you should believe the Bible.

I'm glad you are so confident in the Lord. However, Scripture seems to warn that others who "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit" that they can lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who

were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,

Does this describe the saved?

6If they shall fall away,

Does that mean they can fall away? And thereby lose salvation, because remember, it is impossible:

to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[classyT]

DeMaria,

That is a very sobering verse indeed. But again, what were the jews doing? What was Paul addressing. These Jewish people were offering up sacrifices after the Perfect sacrifce had given up his life. I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.

[De Maria]

DeMaria,

That is a very sobering verse indeed. But again, what were the jews doing? What was Paul addressing. These Jewish people were offering up sacrifices after the Perfect sacrifce had given up his life.

Please explain that statement.

I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.

Thank you. I'm enjoying our exchange as well.

[Tj3]

We don't believe that is an error.

Read Romans 11. Paul speaks quite explicitly against that error.

[Tj3]

One does not seek for something they know doesn't exist, do they?

All the time. Did the explorers in the 15th century KNOW what they would find?

Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?

Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?

Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.

I asked:

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

and you answered:

Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV

I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.

You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.

That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.

My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.
And faith is required for salvation.

You can believe it but that does not make it true.

[De Maria]

All the time. Did the explorers in the 15th century KNOW what they would find?

Columbus was seeking India which he knew existed but stumbled upon America. The Conquistadors were seeking for the Fountain of Youth which they believed was in Florida and for gold they believed was in South American and Mexico.

Which explorers do you refer to who seek for something which they don't believe exists?

Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?

Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?

Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?

Since I was one of those, yes, I thought I knew where it would lead me. But in the end, I wound up where I didn't expect.

What I mean is, when I was atheist, I knew I was right. Now I know that I was wrong.

Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.

How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?

Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.

You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.

Correct. I don't think people seek after that which they believe doesn't exist. They seek after that which they believe exists because they don't know where or how to find it.

That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.

The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.

You can believe it but that does not make it true.

Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?

[De Maria]

Read Romans 11. Paul speaks quite explicitly against that error.

This speaks to the remnant of the Jews who did not leave Judaism and join the Lord and the Apostles in the Church. It is very clear that they were cut away:


20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

They can ALSO be grafted back in IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF. But it won't be to the same Old Testament Covenant. But to the Covenant of Jesus Christ which is mediated by the Church.

[Tj3]

This speaks to the remnant of the Jews who did not leave Judaism and join the Lord and the Apostles in the Church. It is very clear that they were cut away:


[I]20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Careful - read all of what it says:

Rom 11:17-19
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV

NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.

[De Maria]

Careful - read all of what it says:

Rom 11:17-19
And if some of the branches were broken off,

Some of the branches refers to the fact that many Jews left Israel and converted to the Christian faith. Those that didn't were broken off:

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV

NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.

I believe it does. And elsewhere also:

Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

[Tj3]

Columbus was seeking India which he knew existed but stumbled upon America. The Conquistadors were seeking for the Fountain of Youth which they believed was in Florida and for gold they believed was in South American and Mexico.

He was not looking for India, but rather trying to find a route non-existent route to India which he HOPED existed. Others just set out to find out what was there. Read about Cook, for example.

Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?

Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.

How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?

Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.

Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.

Exactly.

The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.

Exactly. So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.

Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?

Absolutely. I often tell people on-line and when I speak in public NOT to believe something because I say it, but to check things out for themselves.

[Tj3]

Some of the branches refers to the fact that many Jews left Israel and converted to the Christian faith. Those that didn't were broken off:

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

In the OT we are told that the gospel would also go to the Gentiles. So? The Gentiles believers are grafted into the tree of... what? ISRAEL!

I believe it does. And elsewhere also:

Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?

NO -

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):

36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV

Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV

[De Maria]

He was not looking for India, but rather trying to find a route non-existent route to India which he HOPED existed. Others just set out to find out what was there. Read about Cook, for example.

This verse seems to say that hope is more than faith.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

According to this, hope comes when faith is increased.

So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.

Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.

How does that answer my question?

Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?

Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.

Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.

So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.

??

[De Maria]

In the OT we are told that the gospel would also go to the Gentiles. So? The Gentiles believers are grafted into the tree of... what? ISRAEL!

To the root. The root is God.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The wild tree was grafted in to the root.

Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!

To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.

John 1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?

NO -

Until Jesus fulfilled the Covenant.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV

Deuteronomy 28:37
And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

1 Kings 9:7
Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Psalm 44:14
Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

And if you keep reading Jer 31, you'll see that the Old Israel will be destroyed and the New City, the New Jerusalem will be lifted in its place to last forever. This is a prophecy of Christ's Church.

38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

[Tj3]

This verse seems to say that hope is more than faith.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

According to this, hope comes when faith is increased.

This is not speaking of hope that their region of ministry will be increased. This is not speaking of salvation.

So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.

The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence. Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.

Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.

That is a dramatic change of topic.

[Akoue]

I'm trying to see the present discussion in light of the OP...

There is, I think we all agree, a meaningul distinction to be made between believing something and believing in something, in the sense of having faith. I believe that 2+2=4, and I believe in the laws of arithmetic. But the sense in which I believe in the laws of arithmetic is different from the sense of "believe in" in which I believe in God. Faith involves, among other things, commitment of a sort that isn't in play in the arithmetic case.

But, however me may discriminate between belief (I believe that p), or even belief + psychological certainty (I'm really certain that p), faith involves a kind of commitment that isn't obligatory in cases of mere belief. I understand the second chapter of James to say that we can have faith in the absence of works, but in a deficient way, to wit, that it is not a living faith. This is why we are told not to buy in to the idea that justification is by faith alone, precisely because were it alone it would be a dead faith, it would be faith in only a very attenuated sense of the word "faith".

[Tj3]

To the root. The root is God.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The branches are the same as the root:

Rom 11:16-17
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
NKJV

Rom 11:24
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV

If you say that the root is God, then so are the branches including those cut off.

The wild tree was grafted in to the root.

That is not what scripture says:

Rom 11:23-25
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV

Some wild branches were grafted onto the true where some natural brahces were cut off.

To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.

You keep forgetting that the covenant with Israel is everlasting. It depends upon God's fathfulness not that if the Jews.

If lack of faithfulness was a reason for rejection, then the Gentiles have no claim to the covenant.

[De Maria]

This is not speaking of hope that their region of ministry will be increased. This is not speaking of salvation.

My point is that hope, according to my understanding of that verse, requires greater faith. You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.

This translates to seeking God. Those who "hope" to find Him will seek diligently for Him although they might be seeking in shadows until they get to the light.

The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence.

I am using the evidence to support my explanations. Explorations were a business venture then as now. Business men didn't go out to search for things which they didn't believe existed because they would LOSE MONEY. They wanted to make money. And not just a little. They wanted to be rich. Then as now, it doesn't make sense to risk fortunes on risky ventures.

Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.

?? I have no idea what that means. Are you comparing "believing in anything else besides God" to "believing in God"?

If not, what do you mean?

If so, where is this concept in Scripture?

That is a dramatic change of topic.

Really? Didn't you bring up explorers of the 15th century? And weren't they business men seeking to make a fortune or sent by businessmen and Kings seeking to make a profit?

[Tj3]

My point is that hope, according to my understanding of that verse, requires greater faith.

It is not even talking about the same thing nor is it saying what you claim. You are taking it entirely out of context.

You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.

I think you are grasping at straws bigtime. Now you seem to promoting have faith in nothing.