[De Maria]

But Fred, Romans 3:23 says that no one has done what He says.

Then you think that scripture is wrong?

Of course not. Fred is a faithful Catholic and Catholics believe the Scriptures are inerrant.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As you can see, the Scriptures say that Christ saves those who obey Him.

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

This letter is addressed to TIMOTHY. So, St. Paul is saying that HE AND TIMOTHY are saved. Can St. Paul be certain that he and St. Timothy are saved. Yes. The Church teaches that one can be certain of salvation if it is revealed by private revelation. Since, St. Paul was taken to the seven heavens, we can be sure that God revealed many things to him.

The Council of Trent states: "If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema"(Council of Trent, Canon 16).

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Baptism now saves us. The washing of regeneration refers to WATER and renewing of the Holy Spirit, refers to SPIRIT.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Akoue]

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

[De Maria]

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

That's Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

[Akoue]

Akoue,

Having seen your handling of the word of God, as I said before, your criticism carries no weight at all.

Quote one or more of my discussions of Scripture and explain to me how I got it wrong.

[arcura]

Tj3,
You have not ever successful refuted what the Cheat Sheet provides. You have attempted to but as usual fell flat on your face.
The reason is that that sheet provides passage from Scripture and some cases is backed up by real authentic history not your bogus version.
So please do not claim that you have successfully refuted it because that is NOT true.
Or do you LIKE to say not true things?
It does seem so.
Fred

[arcura]

Akoue,
He can not or will not.
So is his history.
Fred

[N0help4u]

Thats Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

[Akoue]

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Good work with that answer to NoHlep4U.
We are asked (Biblically speaking) to do certain works and work of God.
The bible also says that we will be judged by our works good and bad.
Is there any passages that say that how bad, good, week, strong, or whatever our faith is will be judged?
Fred

[De Maria]

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

Read Matt 25, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and inprison, clothing the naked.
Read St. James, caring for widows and orphans.

In addition to Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Matrimony, Extreme Unction, attending Mass etc. etc.

These are all good works. And I don't think baking for the Church social is disqualified either.

[N0help4u]

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

[Akoue]

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

Of course, your works have to be in harmony with GOd's will. Nobody disputes that. Good works are to be performed in a spirit of humility. See James 2.14-17: If you send away someone on need of food and clothing, your faith alone will not save you.

[arcura]

N0help4u,
No one can earn a free trip to heaven.
Yes making food for a Church social can be considered to be a good work.
We just had one and the money made went for charitable purposes such as the food bank to feed the hungry.
We are to produce good fruit which is harvested by others.
That is a good work.
A good work is to provide the truth about the Gospel and to spread it.
I could name many good works which God has indicated are pleasing in His eyes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[De Maria]

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

What makes you decide whom should be helped and who shouldn't?

[adam7gur]

Let's look at James 2 for a minute. You tell us to look at the context. The context, reading from James 2.14: We get the question, "What good is it, my brothers, is someone says he has faith [pistin] but does not have works [erga]? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM [me dunatai he pistis sosai auton]?" Then, in vv.16-17 we are given an example: If someone has nothing to wear and has no food, "and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace'" without providing for their needs, "what good is it"? Now verse 17: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead [houtos hai he pistis, ean me eche erga, nekra estin kath' heauten]"--it is not a living faith.

Now v.20: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless [Theleis de gnonai, ho anthrope kene, hoti he pistis choris ton ergon arge estin]?"

Now v.21: "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS [ex ergon] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. <22> You see that faith [he pistis] was active along with his works [tois ergois autou], and faith [he pistis] was completed by the works [ek ton ergon]."

It looks to me like what's required is both faith and works together, as I've been saying, so that neither alone (i.e., in the absence of the other) is sufficient.

Where on earth are you getting this bizzaro faith/faithfulness business? The word is "pistis"--faith. If the NT were making a distinction between "faith" and "faithfulness" wouldn't you expect it to have been made in the Gk? But what you find in the Gk. is just "pistis". So you are trying to read a distinction drawn in English--faith/faithfulness--into the NT, which has only the word "pistis".

Good job Akoue and this comes from a Greek!

[Akoue]

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yes, and your intentions matter. An act undertaken out of a desire to be "puffed up" is devalued thereby. In adjudicating our actions, God adjudicates our intentions. Obedience provides for both rectitude and stability: If we cultivate the habitus of acting from obedience, we will be more likely to perform actions in harmony with God's will and purposes when those actions involve sacrifice or hardship.

[De Maria]

Well, its been fun. Good night all.

[arcura]

De Maria.
I agree.
Have a good sleep.
You have earned it.
Good night,
Fred

[Akoue]

Time for me to sign off too. Good night, all, and be well.