[Akoue]

If, as Tj has been arguing, it is just blazingly obvious that works don't matter and baptism is to be dispensed with and the rest of us are just really, really stupid to read Scripture as we do (he's made it clear he thinks I'm pretty dumb)... Why, I wonder, did the early Church require baptism and the necessity of works along with faith for salvation? And I'm talking the REALLY early Church--late first and second centuries. The only people in the period who denied this were Gnostics, and Tj agrees that Gnosticism is heresy. So, here's my thing: Was the revelation brought in the first half of the first century so ineffectual that even those who were working with the Apostles got it all so terribly wrong? It was so ineffectual that even Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, the Didache, etc. botched it? Was Christ a lousy teacher? Were the Apostles? Was the Spirit not guiding any of these people? Was the Spirit so shockingly absent from them, and from the poor people being instructed by them, that God permitted massive theological delusion in the space of less than a decade? That would make God a pretty lousy Father.

(Yeah, I'm bringing up another point, Tj, not changing the subject. I can't seem to get you to respond to the questions I've been asking since #11, so I thought I'd bring in another angle.)

[Tj3]

If, as Tj has been arguing, it is just blazingly obvious that works don't matter and baptism is to be dispensed with

Back into mis-representation, I see. You think abuse is a work of righteousness?

[JoeT777]

Answer my questions first -and I'd be happy to answer yours. You have been evading these questions for pages.

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

I'll answer this one since you want to dodge it. The answer is ONE. One and only one as Christ required.

20 And not for them only [the deciples] do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. 23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. 24 Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. 25 Just Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee. And these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have made known thy name to them and will make it known: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. ( John 17)

JoeT

[Tj3]

I'll answer this one since you want to dodge it.

I dodged nothing. Talking about dodging, I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

[Akoue]

What your denomination believes is of no consequence when discussing Biblical doctrine.

Well, Tj, did the Holy Spirit descend on you in tongues of fire at Pentecost? Did you receive the laying on of hands from someone who received the laying on of hands from someone who received the laying on of hands, etc..,. from an Apostle? Did you, or anyone from whom you've received the laying on of hands, receive the power to create halakha from Christ?

You attack denominations. Do you worhip alone? Do you worship with people who disagee with you? Or are you a denomination of one?

[Akoue]

I dodged nothing. Talking about dodging, I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

I did that, and you haven't explained how I got either wrong. You also haven't addressed my claim that it doesn't follow from the fact that the thief was saved without baptism in water it doesn't follow that we aren't to be baptized.

Tell me, why did all the early Church Fathers preach the necessity of baptism and works, as well as faith? Were they antichrists? Did the Apostles do such a bad job that they ordained a bunch of antichrists?

[Tj3]

Well, Tj, did the Holy Spirit descend on you in tongues of fire at Pentecost? Did you receive the laying on of hands from someone who received the laying on of hands from someone who received the laying on of hands, etc..,. from an Apostle? Did you, or anyone from whom you've received the laying on of hands, receive the power to create halakha from Christ?

Does scripture say that any of the above are essential? Why are you trying to divert from the question.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved?

You attack denominations.

Do you specialize in mis-representations or is that just a hobby? I do not attack denominations. I have no issue with denominations.

[Tj3]

I did that,

Again, you do not read carefully. Look who I posted that message to. It wasn't you.

and you haven't explained how I got either wrong.

I responded. Maybe you did not read the responses.

Tell me, why did all the early Church Fathers preach the necessity of baptism and works, as well as faith?

I have not denied the importance of any of the above. But I am discussing how and why scripture says that they are important, but what one person or another believes.

[Akoue]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved?

I mentioned this just a little bit ago: Please explain what you mean by "indwell". Can't answer till I understand the question.

[Tj3]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved?

I mentioned this just a little bit ago: Please explain what you mean by "indwell". Can't answer till I understand the question.

And I answered. Maybe you did not read.

[Akoue]

I responded. Maybe you did not read the responses.
.

Kindly repost, since I can't seem to find your response.

[Akoue]

Again, you do not read carefully. Look who I posted that message to. It wasn't you.
.

So what? This is a public space, and I'm not just talking to you. And neither has Joe been talking only to you. If you want to keep a conversation private, take it to PM.

[Tj3]

Kindly repost, since I can't seem to find your response.

Maybe if you spent less time mis-representing what I say and more time reading what is said...

Here is it once again:

"You know ... what happens when a person is saved according to scripture."

I am making the assumption that you understand what the Bible says happens when a person is saved.

[Tj3]

So what? This is a public space, and I'm not just talking to you. And neither has Joe been talking only to you. If you want to keep a conversation private, take it to PM.

It is not about privacy - it is about you claiming that I was saying this to you.

[JoeT777]

I dodged nothing. Talking about dodging, I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

You haven't addressed anything either.

[Tj3]

You haven't addressed anything either.

An empty claim, Joe.

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

[arcura]

Water is essential when it is available .
Obviously it was not on the cross.
That is why there are three ways a person my be baptized.
Fred

[Tj3]

Water is essential when it is available .

Then it is not essential. But that does not explain Acts 10 in any case.

[Akoue]

It is not about privacy - it is about you claiming that I was saying this to you.

I didn't claim that. I said that I already answered it.

[arcura]

I just said that it IS essential when available.
Don't try to twist my words to mean something else as is your habit to do.
Fred