[Akoue]

Prayer is a work, eh? So tell me, how much prayer is necessary in addition to receiving Christ in order to be saved.

And, it appears that you are saying that the prayers of the unsaved are as effective as the prayers of the saved because if prayer (work) is essential for salvation, then it must be done before the person is saved.

But then we have that scripture that says:

Rom 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NKJV

So how do you conclude that works before we are saved are pleasing to God?

Let's have some more fun!

Rm.8. Well, yeah, the hoi sarkikoi of whom Paul speaks at length aren't pleasing to God since they are ruled by their desires. How does this show that faith without works is sufficient for salvation?

[Akoue]

Fred,

"Hilarious" is the word I was thinking too. Since Paul nowhere says that "faith alone" saves, nor that we should adhere to "Scripture alone", it's really hard for me to see how you have in any way distanced yourself from him. I think we're getting a pretty good idea which view is really "Biblical" here.

[Tj3]

Let's have some more fun!

Rm.8. Well, yeah, the hoi sarkikoi of whom Paul speaks at length aren't pleasing to God since they are ruled by their desires. How does this show that faith without works is sufficient for salvation?

Well reading your question, it is not clear that you actually read the context in which this was posted, but let me explain it to you once again.

If a "work" is essential for salvation, then it must occur BEFORE a person is saved. Therefore all works by the unsaved must be pleasing to God in order for then to be accepted by God in addition to the blood sacrificed on the cross to merit salvation.

[Tj3]

Also notice that I was just falsely accused of calling the apostle Pauj a heretic.

But you did, Fred, as you have many times over the years.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[Akoue]

Bed time for me.

[arcura]

Akoue,
And also bed time for me.
Note that I was just again falsely accused calling Paul a heretic.
I have never done any such thing but I have been accused by faith only believers of doing so.
Never have they be able to show me where any one in the bible says "faith only saves".
They can not because it is not there even though Luther once tried to insert those words in the bible and leave out the book of James.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Akoue,
And also bed time for me.
Note that I was just again falsely accused calling Paul a heretic.
I have never done any such thing but I have been accused by faith only believers of doing so.
Never have they be able to show me where any one in the bible says "faith only saves".
They can not because it is not there even though Luther once tried to insert those words in the bible and leave out the book of James.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That's because "faith alone" isn't in Scripture. "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Semper Fi

[Tj3]

Akoue,
And also bed time for me.
Note that I was just again falsely accused calling Paul a heretic.

You said that those who teach salvation faith in Jesus Christ alone without works are heretics. Are you denying that you said that?

[Tj3]

That's because "faith alone" isn't in Scripture.

I'd suggest that you buy a new Bible. The one that you are using appears to be missing pages.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[Akoue]

You said that those who teach salvation faith in Jesus Christ alone without works are heretics. Are you denying that you said that?

Umm, no. He's clearly saying--he's said it again and again--that he takes it to be a heresy but that Paul never taught it. And you haven't given anybody any reason to suppose otherwise. Each time you've cited a passage it has been shown, by several people now, that you've misunderstood it. You got Eph.2 wrong. You got Rom.3 and Rom.8 wrong. You got Jn.6 wrong. You got James 2 wrong. And you have yet to demonstrate otherwise. You quote a lot of Scripture, but you don't seem prepared to justify you interpretations of it (which is where we left off on the other thread, "How will you be judged..."). The Scriptures aren't saying what you want them to.

(What can I say, my bedtime's been pushed back a bit!)

[Tj3]

Umm, no. He's clearly saying--he's said it again and again--that he takes it to be a heresy but that Paul never taught it.

He can claim Paul never taught it, but I look at what scripture says. Denial does not change reality.

And you haven't given anybody any reason to suppose otherwise. Each time you've cited a passage it has been shown, by several people now, that you've misunderstood it.

Once again, I do not accept you as judge and jury over God's word, and you have yet to give me reason to accept your private interpretation of what it says.

You got Eph.2 wrong. You got Rom.3 and Rom.8 wrong. You got Jn.6 wrong. You got James 2 wrong. And you have yet to demonstrate otherwise. You quote a lot of Scripture, but you don't seem prepared to justify you interpretations of it (which is where we left off on the other thread, "How will you be judged...").

I justified everything that I claimed. You, on the other hand seem content now to simply say that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is not a compelling argument.

The Scriptures aren't saying what you want them to.

If you think that it is necessary to force scripture to agree with what you want it to say, that may be part of the issue. I don't "want" scripture to say anything. I let scripture speak for itself and submit my views to what God tell us through His word.

[Akoue]

"He can claim Paul never taught it, but I look at what scripture says. Denial does not change reality."

Okay, where does Paul teach it? We've already gone through Eph.2, Rom.3, and Rom.8. He doesn't say it in any of those, as we've seen. By all means, find me a place where Paul says that faith in the absence of works suffices for salvation.


"Once again, I do not accept you as judge and jury over God's word."

I should hope not! Mine isn't the final word. But neither is yours. We've each argued our case. Now, you keep bringing up Eph.2 as though it *obviously* says what you says it does. And I keep showing you that it says something different. You reply to this by quoting it again and saying what amounts to, "See, it says what I said it says". Please accept the invitation I've extended many times to provide a rigorous reading of Eph.2 that disqualifies my reading of it.


"I justified everything that I claimed. You, on the other hand seem content now to simply say that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is not a compelling argument."

No. I'm saying that people who are wrong are wrong. Now we've been through this: Provide an argument or interpretation of the passages we've been discussing that shows that I'm mistaken.


"If you think that it is necessary to force scripture to agree with what you want it to say, that may be part of the issue. I don't "want" scripture to say anything. I let scripture speak for itself and submit my views to what God tell us through His word."

But it isn't speaking to you in that way, otherwise you wouldn't--for instance--misunderstand Eph.2, and Rom.3, and Rom.8, and Jn.6, and James 2. Again, you need to do more than quote a pericope and then point at it: You need to explain why your understanding of it is correct and alternatives are mistaken.

[arcura]

I had to stay up just to see what the reaction would be from (Tom Smith) Tj3's again false accusation that I called Paul a heretic. Which everyone here who can read knows I did NOT.
Tom just continues to make his false accusations with NO proof at all. He can’t because there is none
I see that He attempts to prove that the bible says "faith alone saves" but the passage he quoted does not say that and never did and never will in an authentic bible.
The passage merely clarifies that works alone can not save or in other words says that a person can not EARN salvation by doing works.
To be clear I repeat that it does not say “faith alone".
Fred

[samuel adams]

Gods name is Mercy.

[Tj3]

"He can claim Paul never taught it, but I look at what scripture says. Denial does not change reality."

Okay, where does Paul teach it? We've already gone through Eph.2, Rom.3, and Rom.8. He doesn't say it in any of those, as we've seen. By all means, find me a place where Paul says that faith in the absence of works suffices for salvation.

I already answered that just a few posts back.

"Once again, I do not accept you as judge and jury over God's word."

I should hope not! Mine isn't the final word. But neither is yours. We've each argued our case. Now, you keep bringing up Eph.2 as though it *obviously* says what you says it does. And I keep showing you that it says something different. You reply to this by quoting it again and saying what amounts to, "See, it says what I said it says". Please accept the invitation I've extended many times to provide a rigorous reading of Eph.2 that disqualifies my reading of it.

Again, already done. Maybe you are not reading the posts in full.

"I justified everything that I claimed. You, on the other hand seem content now to simply say that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is not a compelling argument."

No. I'm saying that people who are wrong are wrong.

Actually, for the past few posts that is exactly what you have been using as your primary argument.

Now we've been through this: Provide an argument or interpretation of the passages we've been discussing that shows that I'm mistaken.

Once again - already done.

"If you think that it is necessary to force scripture to agree with what you want it to say, that may be part of the issue. I don't "want" scripture to say anything. I let scripture speak for itself and submit my views to what God tell us through His word."

But it isn't speaking to you in that way, otherwise you wouldn't--for instance--misunderstand Eph.2, and Rom.3, and Rom.8, and Jn.6, and James 2. Again, you need to do more than quote a pericope and then point at it: You need to explain why your understanding of it is correct and alternatives are mistaken.

Once again, your only argument is you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong - even when scripture is explicit.

[Tj3]

I had to stay up just to see what the reaction would be from (Tom Smith) Tj3's again false accusation that I called Paul a heretic. Which everyone here who can read knows I did NOT.

Did you or did you not say that anyone who believes that faith alone in Jesus without works is heretic?

[Akoue]

Fred,

Don't respond to his last post. He's just trying to get the thread closed. You have nothing to prove on this score, as Joe and I have also shown.

[arcura]

Paul is NOT a heretic. Period.
Believing a heretic theology on a particular subject does not make a person a heretic in my mind.
But a person who believes and teaches many heretic theologies is one. I so believe
No where in the bible does Paul say "faith alone saves" or "faith without works saves".
NO WHERE!!
NONE of the quotes Tj3 has provide say that: NONE!!
Tj3 wants to believe in faith alone.
That his right to believe that even if it is wrong, which it is.
And it has been PROVEN to him here by several people.
He just wants to continue to make false accusation against people who disagree with him.
So be it.
That's the way he is and has always been for the many years I have been on different board with him.
Even so I continue to pray for him and wish him peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

Akoue,
Oops.
To late.
I just responded to it while you were posting yours.
It is good advice.
I wish I had got it sooner.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

And where did you do that? I may be overlooking it. Perhaps you could provide the #. I do see that you quoted Eph.2 again. Is that all you had in mind?

My argument, throughout, has been that you haven't proved your claim that salvation does not require both faith and works. This whole line started when you challenged my response to, Galveston1 (post #11). Since then I have gone through the Scripture that you have provided, concluding in each case that you had misunderstood it. In order to reply in any adequate way, you would need to show that my account of what those passages are saying is faulty. But you don't do this; you reply by quoting the passages all over again. I know where they are; I've read them. My point is that you don't understand what they are saying. Now go back to any post of mine you'd like and show that I have misunderstood Scripture. Failing that, you could go through all of the passages that De Maria has provided on this and the other thread, demonstrating painstakingly that she (and I) have misread them. If you do neither of these, if you instead speak in vague terms about having done this and shown that... Well, then you lose.