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Alty · Nov 15, 2008, 11:08 PM

Good question Exy,

No, I don't think an 8 year old child should be tried as an adult.

I have a 10 year old son. Yes he knows right from wrong, but because he's 10 he doesn't always follow what he knows is right. Would he kill hubby and me, no, because he comes from a stable home, he's loved, he's not abused, he's mentally healthy.

There are people that are disturbed no matter how they are raised. Look at Jeffrey Dahmer, his upbringing was very normal but he turned out to be a serial killer. After he was arrested his father thought back to his childhood and yes, there were signs that he was disturbed. 20/20 hindsight is a b#tch, isn't it?

I don't know the case that you are talking about, but yes, I'm sure that things in that home weren't good and the little boy snapped, or maybe we do have another Jeffrey Dahmer on our hands.

So then, how do we determine who gets tried as an adult? Personally, if you aren't old enough to vote, then I don't think you're old enough to be tried as an adult. No gray area there. Under 18 you're a minor, over 18 you're an adult. That's my opinion.

If a child of 8 commits a murder then obviously that child needs psychological help more than he needs to be behind bars. I would hope that they would make sure that this boy gets the help he needs.

Should he be punished? Yes. But what punishment is suitable for an 8 year old child that kills? I don't have the answer to that.

spitvenom · Nov 19, 2008, 07:02 AM

I was watching CNN last night and they were talking about this story. They questioned the 8 year old without a parent (obviously the dad is out of the question) or lawyer present and no one read him his Miranda rights. I always thought and I could be wrong but by the police not reading him his rights and questioning a minor with out a parent or lawyer there make their case fall apart?

excon · Nov 19, 2008, 07:11 AM

Hello spit:

I think you're right. Who says the Arizona cops are smarter than the 8 year old? This, of course, is the state that boasts the toughest sheriff in the world, where he makes his inmates wear pink underwear and feeds them green baloney.

excon

spitvenom · Nov 19, 2008, 08:25 AM

I think I saw that guy on TV don't all of the inmates sleep in a big tent outside?

classyT · Nov 19, 2008, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Good question Exy,

So then, how do we determine who gets tried as an adult? Personally, if you aren't old enough to vote, then I don't think you're old enough to be tried as an adult. No gray area there. Under 18 you're a minor, over 18 you're an adult. That's my opinion.

.

Alty,

I completely agree with you. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal but I think this is the best way to deal with KIDS that commit crimes. I also don't believe this kid needs jail of any kind. He is 8, a mere babe, he has no father and the boy is troubled and needs help.

excon · Nov 19, 2008, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by spitvenom

I think I saw that guy on TV don't all of the inmates sleep in a big tent outside?

Hello spit:

Yup, in the 120 degree Arizona desert... Been there - done that.

excon

excon · Nov 19, 2008, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal but....

Hello again, T:

You're not?? Could have fooled me. Anybody who thinks a killer needs help instead of the chair has Got to be a bleeding heart.

Pretty soon you're going to be throwing over all the other conservative crap stuck in the nooks and cranny's of your brain.

excon

Alty · Nov 19, 2008, 09:01 AM

The child is 8 years old. That says it all. He's not even old enough to cross the street by himself, let alone be tried as an adult. Heck, he's not even a teen, not even close.

Personally, all I want to do is take that kid into my home, give him the love he obviously needs, give him stability, kindness, and everything else he's missed out on in his short 8 years on this earth.

He does need help, obviously, but jail? Do we want to turn this kid into a criminal for life? Put an 8 year old in jail and you reap what you sow. There's still time to save this kid.

This is so sad, for everyone involved.

classyT · Nov 19, 2008, 09:02 AM

Ex,

DREAM ON DUDE! LOL LOL

Hey I don't think just ANY killer needs help and not jail.. but those under 18 are still kids. Their brains aren't fully formed either. I have a heart for kids.. what can I say?? But I am TOUGH as nails when it comes to the adults... scary tough. LOL

Alty · Nov 19, 2008, 09:08 AM

Classy, you're a big softie, I know you are. ;)

asking · Nov 19, 2008, 09:39 AM

Altenweg, I was intrigued by your comment about Jeffrey Dahmer, so I went and read a little about him. I think his childhood may have been normal, sadly so, but not healthy. He sounds like he had an abusive father and he was cutting up animals as a child...

I could be wrong, but I think anyone who can pass as normal--get jobs, join the military--and does stuff like this has almost certainly not had a healthy childhood. I remember reading a European study along time ago that said that while a tendency to non violent criminality appeared to have a genetic component, violent crime did not. That could be wrong, too. But I do think upbringing--especially abusive parents--have a huge effect on personality and behavior.

The big question is whether kids who have been subjected to this can be rescued and when, and also why some kids subjected to abuse grow up to be decent people. What makes some people so resilient to trauma? If we could bottle that, we'd be rich.

spitvenom · Nov 19, 2008, 09:56 AM

I think the thing that makes me wonder when I was watching the interview on CNN they asked the 8 year old why he shot the dad twice. The 8 year old said he shot his dad twice because the first shot didn't kill him and he (the dad) was suffering. How does an 8 year old know that?

asking · Nov 19, 2008, 10:04 AM

My kids understood suffering at that age and younger. They still try not to kill or hurt anything. I am not sure the older one would even kill an ant...

I actual think that's a hopeful sign for the boy. He's probably not a psychopath with no empathy.

Alty · Nov 19, 2008, 10:17 AM

Actually, Asking, Jeffrey Dahmer's father was not abusive, just largely absent from his sons life, as was his birth mother. He was molested as a child, by a neighbor. His father travelled a lot, and his mother moved away with her other son, leaving Jeffrey with his dad. Most psychologists think that Jeffrey's problems stem from being alone so much in his life. He had abandonment issues, which is why he kept the bodies of his victims for a long time after killing them. He even ate his victims because he said it made him feel closer to them.

I actually read the book written by Lionel Dahmer "A father's story" which is Jeffrey's fathers account of his life. Of coure, it's from Lionel's point of view, and I doubt he'd admit abusing his son, but from what I read, he loved his child and was as good a father as he knew how to be, which sadly wasn't good enough.

Here's a quote from Lionel (Jeff's dad)

"I could not imagine how he had become such a ruined soul. For the first time I no longer believed that my efforts and resources alone would be enough to save my son. There was something missing in Jeff. We call it a 'conscience.' That had either died or had never been alive in the first place."

I don't think that this 8 year old in the news is a psychopath, I think he's just a sad, abused, scared little boy. I could be wrong, but really, what needs to happen to make an 8 year old kill? Something must have been extremely wrong in that house.

I really hope he gets the help he so desperately needs, and I know that help would not be available in prison.

liz28 · Nov 19, 2008, 10:20 AM

8 year old are smarter than you think. Last year a 9 year old stab her godsister in the chest because she got mad at her, I forget why she was mad at her, but the girl that got stab died instantly and the 9 year old wasn't even charged because she was too young.

excon · Nov 19, 2008, 10:20 AM

Hello again, my friends (yes I did learn that from John McCain):

So, you don't think an 8 year old should be tried as an adult... Cool. Then how about taking a shot at the second part of my question.

Does trying a child as an adult have to do with his AGE or his CRIME??

excon

asking · Nov 19, 2008, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Actually, Asking, Jeffrey Dahmer's father was not abusive, just largely absent from his sons life, as was his birth mother. He was molested as a child, by a neighbor. His father travelled alot, and his mother moved away with her other son, leaving Jeffrey with his dad. Most psychologists think that Jeffrey's problems stem from being alone so much in his life. He had abandonment issues, which is why he kept the bodies of his victims for a long time after killing them. He even ate his victims because he said it made him feel closer to them.

I actually read the book written by Lionel Dahmer "A father's story" which is Jeffrey's fathers account of his life. Of coure, it's from Lionel's point of view, and I doubt he'd admit abusing his son, but from what I read, he loved his child and was as good a father as he knew how to be, which sadly wasn't good enough.

...
I don't think that this 8 year old in the news is a psychopath, I think he's just a sad, abused, scared little boy. I could be wrong, but really, what needs to happen to make an 8 year old kill? Something must have been extremely wrong in that house.

Perhaps I took too much from the wikiepedia entry, which said his father "forced" him into the military. I thought that spoke volumes about Dahmer's boundaries (or lack of them) and his father too. But I will defer to your superior knowledge on this topic. In any case, it doesn't sound like a very happy or healthy childhood.

I agree with you completely about the current 8 year old.

spitvenom · Nov 19, 2008, 10:31 AM

Ex, I think it has to do with the crime. If the 8 year old stole soda and candy from a store we wouldn't even know about it or be talking about this. But since it is murder well here we are.

Alty · Nov 19, 2008, 10:32 AM

Exy,

For me it's his age. Yes, murder is a horrific crime, and no one should be allowed to get away with it. But, does an 8 year old child have the mental capacity to understand that his actions are wrong? Does an 8 year old child think and act like an adult?

My son is 10, and yes, he's smart, but he's still a child, he doesn't have the intelligence or brain capacity to act responsibly.

For example, as an adult I know that touching a lit candle isn't a good idea, it's hot, you'll burn yourself. Of course I taught my children that, they know that fire is hot, they know they shouldn't touch. Yesterday my son touched the candle and burned his finger. I asked him why he did it. His response "I don't know, I just thought I'd try it to see if it was really hot".

You can tell a child what's right and what's wrong, that doesn't mean that they truly understand.

He should be tried as a child, because that's what he is.

asking · Nov 19, 2008, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Does trying a child as an adult have to do with his AGE or his CRIME?????

To me, it's all age related.

I've never been clear why we have all these rules about not trying children as adults, and then make exceptions because they did something creepy.

If you want to punish 17 years olds like 30 year olds, then change the law and make them "adults." You can always make an exception in the direction of leniency if there are mitigating circumstances.

Eight is the age when children first begin to realize they are separate persons, not just an extension of their family, parents. It can be a tumultuous year as kids this age try to establish boundaries. But they are still deeply childish, not like a 12 year old, who can be quite adult if raised well.

But, now I'm curious. Why are you asking these questions?