[tabbarat]

OK.. so let me get this straight.. ur saying that I'm ONLY staying with her in hopes of having sex with her, AND that she is keeping sex from me to keep me close?

That is too deep and intense...

I agree with you that I want to have sex with this girl, but not to claim a prize, but because I prefer having sex with a girl I care about than a tamale I meet at a club...

I am fulfilling my sexual needs by the tamales, and I do want to have sex with my ex, but it is NOT the reason I'm staying...

She can even tell me "i'll never sleep with u", but I'll STILL stay in the picture UNTIL SHE FULLY GETS BACK WITH HER EX OF 10YRS OR ONE OF US GETS SICK OF THE SITUATION

Like I said, we are good friends who really like each other... I would prefer to sleep with her, but if she is still not ready than I'm not just going to quit because of it... I enjoy her company and so does she... and she knows that by me going out and being technically single that I can meet someone else.. what she wants to do with that information is her choice

For now, I'm enjoying being a couple with my ex AND having guilt free sex sometimes... she can easily end this by letting go of her past (ex of 10yrs)

As for her using sex to keep me in the picture... she knows about my past and how much I love to party and meet women... she knows that if I only wanted to sleep with her, I wold have stopped trying to get her back... she knows its more than just a physical thing for me... so she doesn't need to use sex as a game

[tabbarat]

She told me by the way... she has only had sex with her boyfriend of 10yrs.. so to her sex now is with someone you really love and are meant to spend your life with... she wpuld never have sex "in the heat of the moment"... and she would feel like if she has sex with me, it means that she has cut her past off completely

What she means is that.. the feelings for me are there.. we get along, we never fight, attraction, etc... the whole package is there EXCEPT sex... her having sex with me would mean she is completely over her ex and moved on... apparently she is not ready for that

Of course I don't like it.. but just telling you what she said

[EN Ken]

Sorry to offend you. You strongly advocated casual sex and cited superior experience and knowledge of prostitutes, so I assumed that was what you meant by experience.

Yes, I did advocate casual sex, but I never advocated casual sex over any other type of sex. I personally have no problems with two consenting adults engaging in sex as long as the circumstances do not break the law.

When I stated that I had experience, I was referring to the fact that I have known and interacted with people involved in the sex trade such as adult film stars, exotic dancers, escorts, etc. They were simply people that I hung out with and got to know as people.

I guess you disapprove of prostitution? Let me know if that's also incorrect.

A prostitute is a consenting adult who wishes to engage in sex for money. I will not judge a person the moral code of someone else. I WILL judge that person on THEIR moral code. If she tells me that prostitution is a greatest thing and she's making tons of money so it's okay to do, but she actually hates it and is making next to nothing, then I will most definitely criticize her.

I neither approve nor disapprove of it. I've never gone to a prostitute and don't plan on ever doing so. Simply because I think casual sex is okay doesn't mean that I aim to engage in having sex casually. It is true that I have had sex casually but it was not my aim but rather the circumstances of the situation forced us to be apart. I only have sex with women I plan on seeing again and building some sort of relationship with.

OK.. so let me get this straight.. ur saying that I'm ONLY staying with her in hopes of having sex with her, AND that she is keeping sex from me to keep me close?

That is a possibility, but not the only one.

I am saying that the way a woman wants attention is the way a man wants sex. For a woman, having the attention of a man or men is as important to her as sex is for a man. In this situation, she's getting all the attention she wants and not only that, she's getting the very specialized attention of being your girlfriend.

She is getting all of her needs met in the relationship, but you are not.

like I said, we are good friends who really like each other... I would prefer to sleep with her, but if she is still not ready than I'm not just going to quit because of it... I enjoy her company and so does she... and she knows that by me going out and being technically single that I can meet someone else.. what she wants to do with that information is her choice

Good. If you are okay with the situation then so am I. The only thing I'm going to say is that I would not willingly put myself in a situation like that because I know I could not deal with it, but if you're fine with it then enjoy.

as for her using sex to keep me in the picture... she knows about my past and how much I love to party and meet women... she knows that if I only wanted to sleep with her, I wold have stopped trying to get her back... she knows its more than just a physical thing for me... so she doesn't need to use sex as a game

Very good. If she knows that then that's a good thing and makes me more likely to have sex with you in the near future.

If you are serious about being with this girl, then acceptance is a good choice to make. The way you've restated the situation makes it sound like that sex is an aspect of her sexuality that requires certain emotions to be in place before it can happen. It sounds as though this is something that will require time and if you are willing to wait and continue the relationship that you have with her then she may eventually choose to have sex with you.

Personally, I would make it known in some way that you are having sex with other women and that is how you're coping with her not having sex with you. You are having your sexual needs met outside of the relationship and that is one of the reasons that you're willing to put up with the lack of sex inside the relationship. But that's just what I would do because I would personally want all my needs to be met in my primary relationship.

[talaniman]

Personally, I would make it known in some way that you are having sex with other women and that is how you're coping with her not having sex with you.

That's why he keeps that to himself because he knows it will be all over with.

You are having your sexual needs met outside of the relationship and that is one of the reasons that you're willing to put up with the lack of sex inside the relationship.

I see it the same way.

But that's just what I would do because I would personally want all my needs to be met in my primary relationship.

They are kissy face friends, with rules.

Either way they both are playing a game, (of deceit, deception, and control) instead of doing what healthy relationships do, communicate honestly, and work together.

[EN Ken]

TEither way they both are playing a game, (of deceit, deception, and control) instead of doing what healthy relationships do, communicate honestly, and work together.

Well healthy in this context is relative.

The dynamic of this particular relationship requires a very different set of behaviours than those of a long-term relationship. The behaviours for this type of relationship are indeed unhealthy... for a long-term relationship. If at some point these two were to get into a more serious and committed relationship, then yes some things would have to change, but for the moment, how they're handling things does work.

I have been in a relationship like this with this particular dynamic and this is simply the only way to keep it going until something changes. I personally view maintaining this type of dynamic too much work so I avoid it.

I would not say this relationship dynamic is unhealthy given the context that they're not yet committed, but if they were to become committed this dynamic would be extremely unhealthy and would have very little long-term potential unless one or both of the people involved were emotionally damaged in some way.

[tabbarat]

EN KEN, you are my new relationship guru! Hehehe

1) nothing wrong with casual sex given circumstances.. sometimes things happen... but of course I prefer having sex with a girl I want to have a relationship with... it makes the sex better

2) how about you give me some of those "adult film stars" contacts ;)

3) I really like the "for a women attention is like sex for a man"... that is very true... I want to have sex with her, but her priority is keeping me in the picture until she is ready to have sex with me... interesting... at least I realize it :)

but the question here is: do i take away attention, just like she is taking away sex?

I do sometimes play hard to get, tell her I'm out with friends, go to night clubs without her, make her jealous, tell her I'm busy, cut conversations short... u know, the usual... we do see each other quite a lot, talk almost everyday and act like a couple when we are together, but I always have it in the back of my head that I can't let her have her cake and eat it too

As for telling her I'm having sex... I wouldn't do that... talaniman is right... dont want to risk losing her... what I do is: I) sometimes I have the real sexual flirting, try to get her hot, sometimes I say "u know, its ok if u dont want to have sex...ur probably afraid of how good its going to be...or its ok...take time to practice, etc..".. the occasional phone sex, etc... ii) I tell her that in clubs I get hit on, meet girls etc, tell her about some of the tamales, but never go into details

What are your suggestions?

4) I'm fine with the situation.. I don't like it... but I'm OK with it... I would have course prefer to be just us... but this is fine as well

But let me tell you when I will quit and cut contact: I) if I meet someone else I really like, ii) she starts liking/seeing someone else other than her ex of 10yrs, iii) she tells me that she has decided she only wants to concetrate on getting back with her ex of 10yrs and wants me to leave her alone

5) yeah, she knows I genuinely care about her and am not only after a physical thing... to her sex has to be emotional... especially of she is going to do it with someone else/new after only doing ot with one person for 10yrs!

Her knowing that I really care about her and willing to wait, and me saying that sometimes, will hopefully make her change her mind soon

By the way, talaniman is right.. so far we are kissy face friends with rules :)

But until then ("smthg changes"), I'm enjoying the ride (since there is no long term commitment)

Another question: when you say "until smthg changes"... what do you mean exactly? Any personal examples? Or the same that I listed above

Thanks, take care

[EN Ken]

1) nothing wrong with casual sex given circumstances..sometimes things happen...but of course i prefer having sex with a girl i want to have a relationship with...it makes the sex better

Well, yes a relationship does make the sex better but that's still not the point of a relationship. If you have enough casual sex, you find that, yes it is fulfilling, but only up to a point. Once you hit that point, all the sex in the world will still make you feel as though you are unfulfilled because that void cannot be filled by more sex. It needs to be filled through a meaningful emotional connection that only a relationship can bring.

2) how about u give me some of those "adult film stars" contacts ;)

No.

but the question here is: do i take away attention, just like she is taking away sex?

It's not really a matter of do you, it's a matter of why would you.

You don't simply do it because she's not having sex with you. Withdrawing attention has to been seen as a way of communicating your displeasure with the situation. It's simply a way for you to communicate the fact that you don't like how things are going.

Therefore, in this context, I would say no, you do not withdraw your attention. As far as I can tell, you seem perfectly content with the situation. You have said that you would rather be having sex with her, but you would stay with her regardless of whether she does so there's no reason to be communicating displeasure because you feel the situation is great as it is.

as for telling her im having sex...i wouldnt do that...talaniman is right...dont wanna risk losing her...what i do is: i) sometimes i have the real sexual flirting, try to get her hot, sometimes i say "u know, its ok if u dont want to have sex...ur probably afraid of how good its going to be...or its ok...take time to practice, etc.."..the occasional phone sex, etc...ii) i tell her that in clubs i get hit on, meet girls etc, tell her about some of the tamales, but never go into details

what are ur suggestions?

I guess I should have been clearer when I said you should tell her that you're having sex. I did not actually mean to say "Hey babe, I'm having sex with girls I pick up at clubs." That's incredibly bad form and you will quickly find yourself alone in many situations (although not all). What I would say is something closer to ii. I would say something like "I had a really good time the other night with this girl I met at this club. She was a really cool girl." And leave it at that. You are right in never going into the details because you shouldn't be.

The reason you are doing this is to communicate that you are a sexual being and that your definition of an ideal lifestyle is one that includes sex and that because you're still getting sex elsewhere, you are open to the idea of being with her.

4) im fine with the situation..i dont like it...but im ok with it...i would of course prefer to be just us...but this is fine as well

but let me tell u when i will quit and cut contact: i) if i meet someone else i really like, ii) she starts liking/seeing someone else other than her ex of 10yrs, iii) she tells me that she has decided she only wants to concetrate on getting back with her ex of 10yrs and wants me to leave her alone

Okay, now you're telling me something different.

What I said about attention earlier in this post would hold true if you were simply willing to settle for things exactly as they are now. However, it seems that you are not. It sounds like you actually want to meet a great girl and be in the type of relationship that you want to already be having with this original girl.

In that situation, the rules are slightly different.

If you are actively looking for a girl to date seriously, then you do need to limit the amount of attention and time that is devoted to this girl. You cut back so that you can actually have time to date other girls. So yes, you do withhold some attention, but with a purpose. It's to communicate that you like her, but aren't completely satisfied with the situation so you're also actively pursuing other relationships. You should do this somewhat gradually. If you're seeing her 4 times a week, cut back to 3 for a couple of weeks and then cut back to 2. In my opinion, if you're not monogamous with a girl and you're seeing her more than 2 times a week, then you're communicating that you want to be monogamous with her. If you're in an open relationship with a girl, the most you should be seeing her is twice a week.

At some point, it's likely that she'll comment on the fact that you're seeing each other less and if she questions you on it, you tell her that "Well, I've just gotten busy hanging out with some other people." You do not be any more detailed than that. She will very quickly realize that she needs to be doing more to get more time from you and that may be the push that gets her to realize she needs to make a decision between you and this ex boyfriend of hers.

5) yeah, she knows i genuinely care about her and am not only after a physical thing...to her sex has to be emotional...especially of she is gonna do it with someone else/new after only doing ot with one person for 10yrs!

her knowing that i really care about her and willing to wait, and me saying that sometimes, will hopefully make her change her mind soon

Waiting is really the only way to go. If you're only the 2nd guy she's every been interested in, then her sexual inexperience is something you need to handle. You simply have to move at her pace and let things run their course.

another question: when u say "until smthg changes"...what do u mean exactly? any personal examples?

By "something changes" I mean that some level of commitment is reached. Until the two of you decide that yes, you are going to be an official couple and there's not going to be anyone else, the current dynamic is the dynamic that must be maintained until that point.

For example, when I personally start dating a girl, until we sit down and decide that we are going to be exclusive and we're going to be in a committed, exclusive relationship, she's free to date whomever she wants and I am free to do the same. The level of seriousness has to be built up over time until we get to the point where we both feel that it's serious enough for us to do that. However, once that agreement is explicit, the dynamic of the relationship has to change. You are now officially boyfriend and girlfriend and tactics like the ones in this post simply aren't conducive to the relationship. Saying things like "Oh I hung out with this really cool girl the other night" does not build the relationship, it drives a wedge in the relationship. A new level of openness must be reached and you must be willing to share a larger part of yourself and your life to her. (Notice that I did not say a new level of honesty, because I believe in always being honest but I do not believe that I have to reveal everything about myself or my life all the time.)

As a side note to everyone else other than tabbarat reading this, I realize that this all sounds manipulative and feels like a huge game is being played but that is the nature of this type of relationship. An open relationship requires a knowledge of these types of dynamics and how to structure the entire situation. I am in no way advocating this type of relationship over other types of relationships. I am simply providing advice from what I have learned from my mentor and from my own personal experience.

As a second side note to tabbarat, my mentor actually has a CD product on open relationships. If you are interested, message me privately and I will provide you with the details.

Hope that helps.

[vipriya]

I think she has not got over her past and may she don't want to.. I think it will be good you just say her goodbye... and be good friends because you never know about the future

[talaniman]

Just me, leaving her alone will let her get over the ex, at her own pace, and less drama. While you are still there meeting her needs, and being her crutch, she doesn't have any motives for change or moving forward.

This is NOT an open relationship, there is no sex, so it's a kissy face friendship, and nothing more. You can justify both your behavior any way you want, but the bottom line is, your not happy and fulfilled, your waiting on the chance to get what you want, but don't care about what she want, what she needs, or how to give it to her.

That's not love or caring, and is built on dependence, lies, deceit, and games and manipulations.

Don't let the kissy face part lead you to any other conclusion, other than your using each other for your own needs, and still falling short.

Your both afraid to let go, and stand on your own, but for sure it's the right thing for you both to do, for the long run. In my opinion!

[slapshot_oi]

In the past few days, there has been a several epic posts of 400 words or more that I never read, so I may be repeating something that was already stated.

tabbarat, since you admitted that you and this woman never had sex and the reason she broke up with her ex-boyfriend is because she moved to Dubai and left his sorry a$$ in Ukraine, it is now clear she has you on a leash (the relationship is on her terms) and is using you as an emotional support beam until she gets back with her ex-boyfriend. She's using you; "staying in the picture" won't do anything besides destroy your pride. Put the cap on this one.

I know you don't want to hear this and you'll probably rip me to shreds.

[Romefalls19]

where to buy balls - Google Product Search

Man what is wrong with you? Hanging around this long for something that is not going to happen. She got rid of the other guy you say, yet you're still no closer to the winners circle as you were when he was around. What are you waiting for?

[tabbarat]

1) ENKEN: all true and good as usual... since it is an open relationship/no commitment/kissy face friends (as talaniman calls it), the standard relationship rules don't apply to us

I am not actively seeking other girls for a relationship.. I still really like my ex and enjoy being with her... she is fulfilling my emotional needs...

However, what I am actively looking for is trying to enjoy the "technically still single" lifestyle/having sex with tamales; since I thus far, am not satisfied physically

As soon as I am satisfied in all ways, I will be ready to commit fully to her only

Right now, we both "like"/accept the situation because she isn't ready to fully give up her past; and since she is not ready to have sex, I'm still not fully ready to give up my single life...

So what we ended up with is an open relationship/relationship with no definite commitment

For now, enjoying the ride until smthg changes

2) TALANIMAN, ROME, SLAPSHOT: no, I'm not going to rip you to shreds :)... I appreciate all views and posts

But you have to read/catch up... the relationship is actually on both our terms... as talaniman said, we are both not ready to let go

She could easily tell me that she wants to concentrate on her ex, tell me that she wants to see me less, call me less, not flirt back etc; and I could easily do the same

Like I said before, we are good friends who really like each other

As for what am I waiting for? 2 things: hving sex with her, and her getting over her past and being with me exclusively

But until then, I'm enjoying being fulfilled emotionally by her, and physically by tamales

Never said I prefer it this way... and never said that I sometimes don't get bored/sick of the situation

But for now, enjoying the ride

Take care all

[EN Ken]

i am not actively seeking other girls for a relationship..i still really like my ex and enjoy being with her...she is fulfilling my emotional needs...

No, she is not. If she were fulfilling your emotional needs, then you would be less inclined to look to have other women in your life. Emotional need #8 of men is SEX. If a woman does not have sex with you, then she is not fulfilling this emotional need and it thus becomes near impossible (unless under very specific circumstances) for a man to be happily faithful to a woman.

however, what i am actively looking for is trying to enjoy the "technically still single" lifestyle/having sex with tamales; since i thus far, am not satisfied physically

And you're not satisfied because she is not satisfying your emotional need for sex.

And again, if you're okay with the situation, then this thread is more a journal recording your status with this woman than about advice.

[asking]

She is getting all of her needs met in the relationship, but you are not.

EK, You have absolutely no way to know that all her needs are being met. That's a huge leap of faith. At the very least, she's not getting sex, yet nothing T has said suggests that she has no interest in sex. Therefore, she is not getting her sexual needs met in her relationship with T. Apparently, something about the relationship makes her hesitate. Maybe there are other needs that are not getting met. Who knows? That seems more likely than that she has a sexual appetite and yet is perfectly happy in never consummating it her relationship with T.

Women like sex too, so I'm puzzled by your implicit assumption that sex is a need only for T, but not his girlfriend.

[tabbarat]

Of course women have a sexual appetite too... and I'm waiting for the moment when all the hormones are rushing and she is willing to do it ;)

As for what is making her hesitate... she sees that her having sex with me completes the "cycle", meaning that now we would fully be a couple... we would have the emotional and physical... her having sex with me would be cutting the last "umbilical cord" to her past... for now, she is not ready

I realize this, I'm OK with it (for now), and that is why I keep tamales on the side until smthg changes

[talaniman]

Hmmmm, after getting freshly getting out of a 10 year relationship, what would motivate someone to just jump into another one with the next guy who comes along? Is that a realistic expectation on your part?? Can you imagine her thinking? Do you think she can heal and move ahead with you there? You say there is no pressure from you, but I bet there is always your influence.

I have nothing against an open relationship, just realize what the conflict is. You both has different agendas. You may have your tamales, while you wait for what you want, and she has you, while she figures out what she wants.

Look not knocking you at all, but just curious how long you ride this roller coaster?

[liz28]

I don't even think your have an open relationship, right now if anything, your just friends that like each other that hang up and make out once in a while. Then your both try to make each other jealous.

An open relationship is when two people, not one, agrees to see other people while maintaining some type of relatuonship. They have open communication and some of people that are in this situation have sit down and have rules of about what is aceptable and what isn't.


An .

[talaniman]

Talanimans Rule- Leave females with ex problems alone, and enjoy someone without the baggage.

Less confusion, and more fun.

[slapshot_oi]

but u have to read/catch up...the relationship is actually on both our terms...as talaniman said, we are both not ready to let go

Sorry dude, I don't have the patience to read novel posts. Besides, the posts I have read pertaining to this thread are consistently redundant; if you've read one you've read them all.

The relationship is on your terms as well? That's a hard sale. If this were true, you wouldn't have posted here asking for advice in the first place. You're failing to see the reality of the situation because you're rationalizing, you have a self-beneficial answer for every curve ball this chick throws at you.

she could easily tell me that she wants to concentrate on her ex, tell me that she wants to see me less, call me less, not flirt back etc; and i could easily do the same

This is a possibility and I would believe this, but you also said...

as for what am i waiting for? 2 things: hving sex with her, and her getting over her past and being with me exclusively

Since you're waiting for her, I don't believe you would cut her off as easily as you say you can (the quote before the one above). She wants you to wait for her and you confessed that you'll gladly do that; so again I say, she has you on a leash.

No woman alive finds behavior such as this attractive. Women don't want to date a man that's is at her beckoning call, like a dog. Right now, in her mind, she's comparing you to her ex-boyfriend, whom she admittedly still loves, and he'll win. This recently happened to me and my girl's ex-boyfriend is a chump; 26 years-old and lives with his parents, owes her thousands of dollars and has several drug addictions.

The point is, the personality of the ex-boyfriend doesn't matter, it's the familiarity and comfort that she has with him that matters, hence, he'll always be the good-guy although he may, in fact, be a scum-bag. Nothing but being alone and time will change that.

but until then, im enjoying being fulfilled emotionally by her, and physically by tamales

never said i prefer it this way...and never said that i sometimes dont get bored/sick of the situation

but for now, enjoying the ride

take care all

There's a paradox. You're receiving emotional fulfillment through being with her and yet, on occasion, you get bored and even sick of this ordeal.

I know that regardless of what I say you'll come back with an answer that you find suitable. I'm just rehashing stuff that was all said before anyway. I just needed to kill some time.

[Romefalls19]

I'm sticking around just to find out how it all ends, hopefully before I die