[Chery]

You mean your going along being her unofficial boyfriend???

Hey dude, thats as backward as it gets. So what you have is an agreement to be there for her without a commitment, until one of you wakes up, and finds someone else.

Talk about honesty, does she know about the hot tamale??? Oh thats right, you didn't fall for her, you just nailed her. That doesn't count, since you agreed to be honest?????

You really have to stretch to see a healthy friendship at this point.

Got told to 'spread it' Tal dear..

This is a clear case of different strokes for different folks! And I thought I heard it all,, fooled me!

[talaniman]

I know Chery, as I read things here we have a guy that is either afraid to lose this lady, therefore willing to go along with whatever she says, or is caught up, and still reeling from her dumping him.

Its false hope that keeps him around, and prevents him from seeing his best course of action is to disappear and let her make up her own mind, WITHOUT HIS INFLUENCE. That would be honest, and less painful than running head first into a brick wall, and wondering why he has a headache.

Sorry Tab, that's no way to a females heart. While we're on the honest thing, You started your post at the end of August, and can you say your closer than you were then?

If you really want and honest examination of your feelings, and hers, do so without her playing kissy face, and phone tag, and remove yourself from the games. Get healthy, and enjoy your hot tamales.

[tabbarat]

Its not very complicated... yes, as long as she has feelings for the ex, I will remain the "unofficial bf"... meaning we are a couple, but technically single... I don't mind it, and she doesn't either, because before anything, we have become very good friends

IF/WHEN she gets over the ex (she sometimes tells me that she realizes her life is in dubai not ukraine, and wants to move on... and sometimes she doesn't reply his text messages), then we will fully be together...

However, there is a CHANCE that from now till she gets over her ex, I might fall for a hot tamale OR she meets someone else... then we should be honest with each other because it is no longer an issue of me vs. the ex.. it is smthg different now... it is unlikely it will happen, but a chance (since we both agreed that sometimes we want to go out alone and see friends)

I know you guys are right in a way.. never denied it... but I'm enjoying the ride... I love being with her and we enjoy each others company... why can't we just leave it at that and enjoy it for now.. lets just say we are very good friends that really like each other

If I didn't really like her it would have been easier... and if she didn't really like me, she would have cut it a long time ago.. think of it as an affair if you will... enjoy it while it lasts... no harm, no foul

Your right though.. didnt tell her I boned the tamale... but I did tell her about her.. and I told her where and with who and what happened when I went out without her... she did the same

There is no reason for me to tell her I fcuked someone else... it will do no good.. we weren't talking everyday and being a couple like now... it was still in the "grey" days ;)...

But it does make me wonder if she would go screw someone else and not tell me... hmmmm... trying not to think about it and enjoy life for now :)

Regards

[talaniman]

Tab, your right, if your both happy with circumstances, why not take the ride, and see what happens. Your both single, all options are open.

[EN Ken]

tabbarat, I've been reading through some of these posts since you asked for my input. As far as I can, you're not looking for advice.

You're more or less chronicling your open relationship with this girl. Having done open relationships in the past, I can say that while they are not what most people view as the norm for relationships, if the people involved in the relationships are okay with the setup, then there's really nothing more to be discussed.

It's important to set out the ground rules and to discuss them explicitly so you each know what to expect from the other. While having protected sex with another girl is not her business, if you're having unprotected sex with another girl, I would tell her because it puts her at risk for transmission.

Other than that, I think you're doing just fine.

[tabbarat]

Thank you... I always appreciated the given advice, and never denied that on some levels it is the right advice!

But you said it right.. what I called an "affair", you called an "open relationship"... thats what it is exactly.. and we BOTH are OK with the setup... and both enjoy being with each other again

She is not fully ready to let go of her past, and I'm not fully ready to let go of her and just stick to the tamales

I loved what I had/have with her, so I'm going to stick it out for now

Like I said, lets just say we are very good friends that really ike each other

It was protected sex by the way... no glove, no love... dont be silly, put a condom on your willy, etc.. I know the drill :)

Take care, boys

[friend4u178]

I have to say this thread is actually quite interesting , looking forward to see how this all turns out.

Good Luck Tab :)

[talaniman]

I know you have an agreement, of full disclosure, but as I read your post, there is no sex between you, just dating, and making out?

[tabbarat]

To be frank... ive know the girl since end of May... we date, we act like a couple, we make out, and lets say we get to 3rd base...

We tried to have sex a couple of times but she was hesitant because of her ex boyfriend back home... she said that he was the only one she had ever been with (he was her boyfriend since she was 15!).. so she needed time/take things slow... I didn't mind at first

Then we broke up for about a month and a half... now, we are back to making out, 3rd base, etc... but once in a while, the discussion of us having sex comes up

I have to note that there is a setback... I live with my brother, who is also her manager! So she prefers not to come to my house at night when he is there, and rather wait till he is not home or travelling... she is shy about coming over to my house and making out/having sex when her manager is at home! Hehehe

Anyway, I'm not in a rush to have sex with her... I really want to, and I'm starting to get sick of the "lets take it slow" bit, but FOR NOW, still not pressuring her and respecting her ex situation, and enjoying rounding the bases but not hitting a home run ;)

Maybe you guys now see why I like to go out with the boys alone sometime and pick up hot tamales! ;)

Anyway, we talked the heck out of why I decided to get back with her... now I would appreciate your inputs on the sex (or no sex) situation

[talaniman]

Just personally, a female getting over an ex, is out of bounds to me, friends only, and no making out. To easy to be a friend zone rebound, as she gets over another, and chances are she will finally get the nerve to explore.

Another thing, unless it's a committed exclusive relationship, no way do we have rules like couples do, just no way.

What a single guy does is his business, and no one else's, and I am no ones unofficial boyfriend, nor will I act like it. AIN'T THAT MUCH LOVE IN THE WHOLE WORLD!!!! (Talaniman rule #7)

I never play kissy face with a friend, or make any such promises as to make her think she has anything to say about what I do. Trust me, its not worth the drama at all, and makes for more complications than its worth. (third base my..! )

That's also a good way to keep things in the perspective of reality, so you don't fall for any BS, females put you through.

What disturbed me about your whole post was her total control of this FRIENDS situation, without benefits, with an ex no less! No female can dump you and keep you around to screw her nut when she needs it, but I do see you being tired of the game.

That's when you'll stand for yourself, and let her make up her mind to sh1t, or get off the pot. As it is, she squats when she wants, and does what ever she wants, and I see no equality, or freedom, or more important, sharing, caring, or working together.

As long as you go along she may come up with anything to keep you close just in case.

Even open relationships are intimate, this is not. If you need a tamale to tide you over, she ain't doing her fair share, so I would never waste my time, until she figures it out. No Way.

Dating is cool, but after that she is on her own. Just me though, since you asked nicely.

[Matteus]

to be frank...ive know the girl since end of May...we date, we act liek a couple, we make out, and lets say we get to 3rd base...

we tried to have sex a couple of times but she was hesitant bc of her ex bf back home...she said that he was the only one she had ever been with (he was her bf since she was 15!)..so she needed time/take things slow...i didnt mind at first

then we broke up for about a month and a half...now, we are back to making out, 3rd base, etc...but once in a while, the discussion of us having sex comes up

i have to note that there is a setback...i live with my brother, who is also her manager! so she prefers not to come to my house at night when he is there, and rather wait till he is not home or travelling...she is shy about coming over to my house and making out/having sex when her manager is at home! hehehe

anyway, im not in a rush to have sex with her...i really want to, and im starting to get sick of the "lets take it slow" bit, but FOR NOW, still not pressuring her and respecting her ex situation, and enjoying rounding the bases but not hitting a home run ;)

maybe u guys now see why i like to go out with the boys alone sometime and pick up hot tamales! ;)

anyway, we talked the heck out of why i decided to get back with her...now i would appreciate ur inputs on the sex (or no sex) situation

1. After 400 posts, you tell us, you never had sex? Yeah, your 3rd base of my a5s.

2. and what is ridiculous, I guess you already forgot why you came here in this forum, and what were your first questions to us. I suggest you reread your first post, my man, because Now you are not looking and not expecting for the same things as you did first.

3. She is not shy! She is just conservator about your whole "story" (although sometimes I think she doesn't even name it a "story"), and she doesn't want anyone to know about it. That will make her feel free and act as single if is needed.

4. Learn from your mistakes and be a real man!

[Mom of 2]

In regard to the sex thing (only getting to 3rd), if this is really the only thing occurring, maybe that is why you are sticking it out because the sexual act with this girl is something of a conquest - a goal. If the fact that you have not had sex with her yet is true, what is going to happen once you do have sex with her? It is apparent that you have a sexual need because that is why you are hooking up with other girls, otherwise I would say that your somewhat gentleman actions for not demanding sex with this girl are admirable. However, you are hooking with other girls with no intention of continuing a close relationship with those other girls. I don't find that admirable. Then again, you are an adult who can choose to do what you want. However, do you REALLY know how those other girls are feeling when you have these hook up sessions? Yeah, they may say that this is all that they want, but let me tell you, they are probably not telling you the truth. Maybe they don't realize the psychological damage that they are doing to themselves when getting themselves in unfulfilling relationships That is their bad, but you also need to be in control of your actions because these hook ups cannot be that beneficial or fulfilling for you either. Otherwise, you would continue having some kind of relationships with these other girls.

Okay, I will get off my moral soap box.

[asking]

I agree with Mom of 2 about the moral cost of the women you only sleep with and talk about as objects whose sole purpose is to satisfy your sexual need. (And it's a moral cost to both the women and you.)

I just read a letter from a woman who worked as a prostitute to put herself through college. At the time, she was fine with it, but 10 years later, she realizes that she was filled with unexpressed self loathing, which she now feels and cannot shake. It's easy to try to justify casual sex but in the end, it's empty. At least this person got a college education out of it. What are you getting?

[EN Ken]

If you haven't had sex with her, then you don't have a relationship with her. For me, by definition, a relationship starts at sex.

This definition will likely upset some people but after being in a sexless relationship for 3 years and then being in relationships with sex, I've learned that not having sex with the person you consider your partner damages whatever connection the two of you have with each other.

Tabbarat, you do not have a relationship with this girl and you treating her like your girlfriend isn't going to make her want to have sex with you. In my opinion, you are being used for your attention. In your situation, I would maybe date her but I wouldn't treat her like a girlfriend because for me to treat her like my girlfriend, she would have to act like my girlfriend and all my girlfriends have sex with me.

Yeah, they may say that this is all that they want, but let me tell you, they are probably not telling you the truth. Maybe they don't realize the psychological damage that they are doing to themselves when getting themselves in unfulfilling relationships That is their bad, but you also need to be in control of your actions because these hook ups cannot be that beneficial or fulfilling for you either. Otherwise, you would continue having some kind of relationships with these other girls.

I must say that I completely disagree.

If a girl is out looking for sex, then that is what she's looking for. Are girls who are only out looking to have sex and not be in a real relationship hurting themselves in some way? Maybe, but not necessarily.

Also, men and women view sex entirely differently. For most men that I've met, they go through a phase where they simply do not want a long-term relationship. I personally have never gone through that phase but many of the men I have counseled have. It's a natural male impulse to want to have a lot of sex with a lot of women and while most guys eventually come to the realization that it's unfulfilling, some guys choose to live their lives that way. I personally make no judgment on which is "right" or "better" because I respect the fact that they have made a choice to live their lives in the way that they think best. If the feel that they're being true to themselves, then I have no problem with whatever choice they make.

I just read a letter from a woman who worked as a prostitute to put herself through college. At the time, she was fine with it, but 10 years later, she realizes that she was filled with unexpressed self loathing, which she now feels and cannot shake. It's easy to try to justify casual sex but in the end, it's empty. At least this person got a college education out of it. What are you getting?

I personally do not agree with your conclusions in this post. You have come to the conclusion that the feelings of self-loathing that she now feels is a result of her days spent working in the sex trade. However, my own experience suggests that women who are receptive to such an idea already have issues of their own or else they would not enter into such work to begin with. While it is possible that this woman entered into such work because she absolutely had no other choice and was really desperate and suffered psychological damage as a result of her work as a prostitute, the alternative of her already having psychological damage due to upbringing and other experiences before entering into the sex trade is much more probable.

[asking]

En Ken,
You are entitled to your opinion. Although I think you have a very narrow view of sex--as if it's a payment that women make to men for being a good boyfriend (lol). But it's bad form here to give someone a reddie (disagree) just for stating their opinion. Reserve disagrees for when someone gives factually incorrect information and use the "disagree" sparingly to really get someone's attention.
My opinion is by defnition correct; it's what I believe. If I said that lung cancer could be cured with raisins, you'd have reason to give me a reddie.

[EN Ken]

Asking,

Although I think you have a very narrow view of sex--as if it's a payment that women make to men for being a good boyfriend (lol).

I'm not sure which part of my post implied this, but in some sense, that's correct. A woman has sex with a man because she finds him attractive and desirable to some degree. If he's a good boyfriend then she'll likely have sex with him because she finds him to be an good boyfriend for her. It's not a payment, but an expression of her attraction for him. For it to be a payment, she'd have to be getting something in return for the sex and if the guy is just pretending to be the type of man that is a good boyfriend, then he's fraud and not really that good a boyfriend.

Also, to be fair, I would not describe my view of sex as any more narrow than believing that sex should always be emotionally meaningful.

For the record, I do believe that sex can be an incredibly beautiful and meaningful act but sometimes it's just two people having a fun night together.

But it's bad form here to give someone a reddie (disagree) just for stating their opinion. Reserve disagrees for when someone gives factually incorrect information and use the "disagree" sparingly to really get someone's attention.
My opinion is by defnition correct; it's what I believe. If I said that lung cancer could be cured with raisins, you'd have reason to give me a reddie.

I see. I did not realize that that was the norm around here. It seemed only appropriate that if people are hitting the "Agree" button for opinions that it'd be fine to hit "Disagree" for opinions as well so I'm sorry.

I'm curious, does it make a difference if I speak from experience than if I speak from opinion? Because I know several people who are involved in the sex trade and both my mentor and a friend of mine are extremely close with some people in the sex trade so from experience and (albeit) 3rd hand information, I know your opinion is somewhat unlikely to occur.

Again, I did not realize that hitting disagree was a bit of a No-no here. Sorry.

[asking]

EK, Apology accepted.

I do continue to disagree with the substance of your remarks--almost entirely!

Opinions are still opinions even if they derive from anecdotal experience--as most opinions do. My opinion is that casual sex with strangers is not good for the soul. I don't think I need to explain or justify that opinion. It's a rather common one. It doesn't mean that I think every sex act is fraught with emotional content as you implied I was saying.

My comment about the prostitute was simply a digression that happened to occur to me. Whether you consider it likely or not is reasonably immaterial to my opinion (stated above). We know it happened at least once.

As for the letter writer herself, she stated that her feelings resulted from her work. You incorrectly said that was my conclusion, implying that it was only my interpretation of something she said. But I was reporting her own statement. I have no reason to think that she was wrong about her own experience, or that you know more about what she experienced than she did herself.

I have no friends in the prostitution industry and would not venture any opinion about what is usual there or how most women feel while doing it, or later on, or whether they all have emotional or personality problems before they enter the trade as you seem to suggest or develop them as a consequence of the work or even if prostitutes as a group have any particular "issues." I respectfully acknowledge your greater experience in buying sex, if that is what you are alluding to in citing your experience.

Welcome to AMHD!

[EN Ken]

I respectfully acknowledge your greater experience in buying sex, if that is what you are alluding to in citing your experience.

That is not what I was alluding to. I have never paid for sex in my life and if you were saying this to me in person I would find it extremely insulting. However, because this is an online board, I'm going to simply choose to let the matter slide. This time.

Welcome to AMHD!

Thank you.

And now back to the thread at hand.

[talaniman]

I think they are playing games with each other for their own reasons, but sex is not part of the equations, but for his part, making out is the promise of more, and I really feel she uses that as a lure to keep him close, just in case, but is also not into him in a healthy way.

[asking]

That is not what I was alluding to. I have never paid for sex in my life and if you were saying this to me in person I would find it extremely insulting. However, because this is an online board, I'm going to simply choose to let the matter slide. This time.

Sorry to offend you. You strongly advocated casual sex and cited superior experience and knowledge of prostitutes, so I assumed that was what you meant by experience.

If you are offended, and again I apologize, then I guess you disapprove of prostitution? Let me know if that's also incorrect.

As for letting things slide, if you confront me by telling me my values are wrong and/or stereotype all women with offensive generalizations, I'm likely to challenge your arguments. :) Don't take it personally.