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gromitt82 · Oct 26, 2008, 10:30 AM

xxxariesxx

religion is such a touchy subject. It's really great that people talk about it and share ideas though, it's the only way we grow.

it is not touchy! We make it touchy which is different! Ever since man started to reason, probably one million years ago, man has felt the need to believe in something supernatural to explain what he was doing down here.

personally i don't believe in practicing religion. It's an aspect of a culture and society, not a given law of existence.

it is not a law of existence but un undeniable need of mankind. For every person who does not feel that need there are thousands who just do and must, somehow, satisfy it.

christianity is the norm in western society, just as buddhism would be in asian societies, or islam in the middle east (very generally speaking). Does this mean that we have the adacity to think that we are better than these people too? We are not any better and we know no more.

i do not think that religions based on love one another (most of them) claim any priority amongst themselves. In any case, true christians do not claim to be better persons than those who are not.
in the way of spirituality we should still have a lot to learn from islamic or hinduism... it’s a terrific demonstration of sheer faith when one can witness in the middle of cairo, when the muedzin at noon calls to prayer and hundreds of people, until then peacefully minding their own business, kneel down in the squares interrupting traffic to pray with their face looking at mecca.

religion is not something universal; it is a product of our environment.

sorry to dissent. Religion is absolutely universal.
what is not universal, eventually, is the lack of religion.

one thing i think is really upsetting is that some try to claim that religion brings people together. Religion causes a lot more distance and separation between people than it brings together.

i agree with you here. But that is not the fault of religions. It is the fault of those who impart the religions and use them to suit their unqualifiable goals and purposes by taking advantage of the faith (and in many cases superstition) of their followers.

it's rare that someone would find a religion if they are happy and productive.

you are obviously thinking in terms of what is going on in the western world where we have been flooded by a deluge of materialism. But even so, your statement does not correspond to reality. The usa is supposed to be one of the countries with a higher standard of living and productive and, yet, it is possible the most religious country of the western world.

it's only after some kind of distress.

with all due respect to your statement, allow me to say that i know more distressed people among those who do not believe in anything than amid those who believe in some sort of reward in another life.

if we all, everyone in every belief, took a step back and saw how completely the same we all are, many things in the world would be quite different.

again this is not the fault of mankind but of its eventual leaders. i’ve had to travel for 0ver 40 years through the whole world because of my job.
i have never had any problems with people of different cultures, colours or religions. All the problems i had to fight against were the outcome of laws and behaviours imposed by the rulers of such countries.

i think it's fascinating how willing we are to believe something so unconditionally without delving deeper into it.

some may not delve enough, because they are satisfied without having to look into any further. Still, many do investigate and research! i, for one!

some believe that homosexuality is wrong because the bible states it is wrong. And everything the bible states must be completely true, correct?

as seem to be the fashion –which never ceases to dumbfound me – you take only the bible to criticize.
but, speaking only of homosexuality practically all religions consider it a sin and in many places is punished with the death.

" (judges 19:24-25)
according to the logic that the bible is a guidebook, complete truth, then apparently the rape of man's daughter is acceptable (i apologize if i step on any toes here).

the bible also says that the universe was created in 6 days! The bible can be interpreted in many ways –depending on who reads it and when it was written – when the book of judges was written (probably over 4000 years ago) women were just third class citizens, and in many cultures they still are...
since you are obviously reading the bible perhaps you will be kind enough as to quote me some verse of the new testament who encourages the rape of any woman!

we have to have the strength to look deep within ourselves and be honest about the difference between what we want to be true and what is actuality;

you are right here, except that many os us, all over the world, we believe in what we want. But i cannot describe what is actuality unless you refer to what we can see and touch. But this is only real at earthly level. Nobody can say what will be real after our short stay over here...

or at the very least to think more clearly, openly, and intelligently about how we judge and treat others and view our wonderful universe.

here you are defintely right, in my opinion, at least. If we should understand that there should not be differences amongst us and we should look more often to our firmament, perhaps we should avoid a lot of problems.

zeitgeist - the movie - watch the original at the bottom of the page first. A worthwhile 2 hours.

it is obvious that peter joseph is just another atheist. The part where he describes the horrors of the war and terrorism and the wonders of our universe is fine although not new. When he starts speaking about religion in my opinion he is just talking rubbish. But as i say, this is my opinion and he can say what he wishes. But i will not waste any time commenting on his line of thought. To caesar what belongs to caesar...

southerngalps · Oct 26, 2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by gromitt82

Would you mind explaining what situation are you referring to when you state that GOD can't help me now? For I'm enjoying another day of my already very long life just because God's Will is that my time IS NOT JUST DUE!
I'M READY TO GO WHEN MY TIME ARRIVES and I do hope GOD will then help me THEN to go.
Other than that, I do not want anything else. GOD has been very generous with me by giving me a wonderful wife, 4 magnificent sons and 7 beautiful grandsons. I'm enjoying a pretty good health for my age and so are all the members of my family. In another year, GOD permitting, I will be able to celebrate my Diamond Wedding (60 years). So can you please tell me what else can I ask for.
Perhaps you are thinking of material possessions. But in that connection I have ALL I need, so I fail to see what you are talking about.

It seems as though this person puts this on all their posts. They did so to one of mine. God had nothing to do with my posts.

;)

southerngalps · Oct 26, 2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by shadowwatcher

your god can't help you now!

I didn't mean to quote yours, sorry. This is the one.

;)

Capuchin · Oct 26, 2008, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by gromitt82

..shouting..

Wow, caps lock sure helped you to get your point across there, champ.

inthebox · Oct 26, 2008, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by xxariesxx

One thing I think is really upsetting is that some try to claim that religion brings people together. Religion causes a lot more distance and separation between people than it brings together. Sure there are occasions when someone "finds God" and so becomes connected to society again. But is that because they actually believe there is a God, or were they searching for a connection to humanity that that was able to fufill?

Some examples for there are too numerous to state:

YMCA
Salvation army
Mother theresa
God's Pantry
Any local Christian pregnancy center

It is the Jesus' example of service to others that " brings people together" :)

I will concede that there are not enough of us living out our faith.
Or those who use religion for their own goals. :(

Originally Posted by xxariesxx

It's rare that someone would find a religion if they are happy and productive. It's only after some kind of distress. These things might offend people but they can't be ignored.

Yes. "blessed are the poor in spirit." I can't tell you how strong, to me, the testimony is of one who has sinned [ drug user, gang member, promiscuous, criminal etc... ] and is now a Christ follower. Or the person who has cancer, or a sick child - and they rely on their faith in God even more.

Yes, people come before the Lord in their time of need, for comfort, with a broken spirit, desperate: for they know that the solution is not within themselves, or money, or other people. Yes, this is me!

Yes, that is me! I'm productive [ family, med professional ] and I am happy in the Lord's blessings and His guidance :)

Originally Posted by xxariesxx

We separate each other based on if our religion accepts them or not (although that is always counter to what religion teaches). It is only another category to further separate the human race. If we ALL, everyone in every belief, took a step back and saw how completely the same we all are, many things in the world would be quite different.

Absolutely agree.
I am a sinner. God forgives me. God loves me. I should forgive and love others because of this and because my sin is no better than anyone elses'

arcura · Oct 26, 2008, 03:30 PM

gromitt82
I also would like to see his answer to that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82 · Oct 26, 2008, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

gromitt82
I also would like to see his answer to that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We shall see, I hope!
Have a good night!

xxariesxx · Oct 26, 2008, 04:14 PM

"Religion is such a touchy subject. It's really great that people talk about it and share ideas though, it's the only way we grow.
IT IS NOT TOUCHY! WE MAKE IT TOUCHY WHICH IS DIFFERENT! EVER SINCE MAN STARTED TO REASON, PROBABLY ONE MILLION YEARS AGO, MAN HAS FELT THE NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING SUPERNATURAL TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE WAS DOING DOWN HERE."

- You are right that we make it a touchy subject. You are also correct that man has felt the need to believe in something "supernatural" to explain existence, which comforts him not because it is true, but because he needs it. We have science now; we don't need to speculate.

"Personally I don't believe in practicing religion. It's an aspect of a culture and society, not a given law of existance.
IT IS NOT A LAW OF EXISTENCE BUT UN UNDENIABLE NEED OF MANKIND. FOR EVERY PERSON WHO DOES NOT FEEL THAT NEED THERE ARE THOUSANDS WHO JUST DO AND MUST, SOMEHOW, SATISFY IT."

- Again you are right. We have to satisfy our needs. I'm not claiming people don't need a religion to be comforted; I'm only saying it's a product of those needs.

"Christianity is the norm in western society, just as Buddhism would be in Asian societies, or Islam in the middle east (very generally speaking). Does this mean that we have the adacity to think that we are better than these people too? We are not any better and we know no more.
I DO NOT THINK THAT RELIGIONS BASED ON LOVE ONE ANOTHER (MOST OF THEM) CLAIM ANY PRIORITY AMONGST THEMSELVES. IN ANY CASE, TRUE CHRISTIANS DO NOT CLAIM TO BE BETTER PERSONS THAN THOSE WHO ARE NOT.
IN THE WAY OF SPIRITUALITY WE SHOULD STILL HAVE A LOT TO LEARN FROM ISLAMIC OR HINDUISM... IT’S A TERRIFIC DEMONSTRATION OF SHEER FAITH WHEN ONE CAN WITNESS IN THE MIDDLE OF CAIRO, WHEN THE MUEDZIN AT NOON CALLS TO PRAYER AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, UNTIL THEN PEACEFULLY MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS, KNEEL DOWN IN THE SQUARES INTERRUPTING TRAFFIC TO PRAY WITH THEIR FACE LOOKING AT MECCA."

- You are absolutely right and I'm glad that you stated this. More people should prove they feel this way as well. If one is going to believe in religion he should definitely respect all of them.

"Religion is not something universal; it is a product of our environment.
SORRY TO DISSENT. RELIGION IS ABSOLUTELY UNIVERSAL.
WHAT IS NOT UNIVERSAL, EVENTUALLY, IS THE LACK OF RELIGION."

- Religion would be universal if every person on this planet believed in it. That's not the case. It's not like the law of gravity. You're right that the lack of religion is also not universal.

"One thing I think is really upsetting is that some try to claim that religion brings people together. Religion causes a lot more distance and separation between people than it brings together.
I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. BUT THAT IS NOT THE FAULT OF RELIGIONS. IT IS THE FAULT OF THOSE WHO IMPART THE RELIGIONS AND USE THEM TO SUIT THEIR UNQUALIFIABLE GOALS AND PURPOSES BY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE FAITH (AND IN MANY CASES SUPERSTITION) OF THEIR FOLLOWERS."

- Religion IS man and his goals and needs. He takes what he has been taught from it; regardless of who leads him. And if there is so much discrepancy on what is right or wrong in the religion itself, "a religion divided is no religion at all."

"It's rare that someone would find a religion if they are happy and productive. It's only after some kind of distress.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOUR STATEMENT, ALLOW ME TO SAY THAT I KNOW MORE DISTRESSED PEOPLE AMONG THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING THAN AMID THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN SOME SORT OF REWARD IN ANOTHER LIFE."

- You made a comment in my first sentence that the USA is one of the most productive and religious countries in the world. I don't dispute that; I stated "find a religion." Not already have grown up taught and believing in one through life.
Also it is a matter of finding religion through distress, not being distressed to find religion. Not everyone that is distressed will find religion, but if one finds religion, it is almost surely because they were distressed.

"If we ALL, everyone in every belief, took a step back and saw how completely the same we all are, many things in the world would be quite different.
AGAIN THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF MANKIND BUT OF ITS EVENTUAL LEADERS. I’VE HAD TO TRAVEL FOR 0VER 40 YEARS THROUGH THE WHOLE WORLD BECAUSE OF MY JOB.
I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT CULTURES, COLOURS OR RELIGIONS. ALL THE PROBLEMS I HAD TO FIGHT AGAINST WERE THE OUTCOME OF LAWS AND BEHAVIOURS IMPOSED BY THE RULERS OF SUCH COUNTRIES."

- Who do you think originally imposed religion on the people? It HAS always been a leader and fueled through our society. These leaders were children at one point too; they were taught the same things that everyone was taught. They cannot be made to be completely at fault. On a side note, the USA has more prisons than any other country. So really we are one of the "imposed by the rulers of such countries."
It is much better to think of ourselves as human. Not Christian, Islamic, etc.

"I think it's fascinating how willing we are to believe something so unconditionally without delving deeper into it.
SOME MAY NOT DELVE ENOUGH, BECAUSE THEY ARE SATISFIED WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK INTO ANY FURTHER. STILL, MANY DO INVESTIGATE AND RESEARCH! I, FOR ONE!"

- Great. More should do that same.

"Some believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible states it is wrong. And everything the bible states must be completely true, correct?
AS SEEM TO BE THE FASHION –WHICH NEVER CEASES TO DUMBFOUND ME – YOU TAKE ONLY THE BIBLE TO CRITICIZE.
BUT, SPEAKING ONLY OF HOMOSEXUALITY PRACTICALLY ALL RELIGIONS CONSIDER IT A SIN AND IN MANY PLACES IS PUNISHED WITH THE DEATH."

- You're right, it's the same for many religions. It doesn't matter which I quote, the result will be the same for nearly all. I chose the Bible because people can relate to that better than anything else.
My point is that, is homosexuality wrong? And if so, what are we basing that off? We are basing it off religion. Is that right? No. As respect for another human being it is not right.

"(Judges 19:24-25)
According to the logic that the Bible is a guidebook, complete truth, then apparently the rape of man's daughter is acceptable (I apologize if I step on any toes here).
THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED IN 6 DAYS! THE BIBLE CAN BE INTERPRETED IN MANY WAYS –DEPENDING ON WHO READS IT AND WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN – WHEN THE BOOK OF JUDGES WAS WRITTEN (PROBABLY OVER 4000 YEARS AGO) WOMEN WERE JUST THIRD CLASS CITIZENS, AND IN MANY CULTURES THEY STILL ARE...
SINCE YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY READING THE BIBLE PERHAPS YOU WILL BE KIND ENOUGH AS TO QUOTE ME SOME VERSE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT WHO ENCOURAGES THE RAPE OF ANY WOMAN!!"

- I had only wanted to make the point that there are selective passages which people practicing a religion tend to look over or follow. If people are going to say that the Bible is everything true, then they cannot be selective in what they follow in it. Something that is up to so much interpretation should not be an unending source of dependence.

"We have to have the strength to look deep within ourselves and be honest about the difference between what we want to be true and what is actuality;
YOU ARE RIGHT HERE, EXCEPT THAT MANY OS US, ALL OVER THE WORLD, WE BELIEVE IN WHAT WE WANT. BUT I CANNOT DESCRIBE WHAT IS ACTUALITY UNLESS YOU REFER TO WHAT WE CAN SEE AND TOUCH. BUT THIS IS ONLY REAL AT EARTHLY LEVEL. NOBODY CAN SAY WHAT WILL BE REAL AFTER OUR SHORT STAY OVER HERE...

or at the very least to think more clearly, openly, and intelligently about how we judge and treat others and view our wonderful universe.
HERE YOU ARE DEFINTELY RIGHT, IN MY OPINION, AT LEAST. IF WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THERE SHOULD NOT BE DIFFERENCES AMONGST US AND WE SHOULD LOOK MORE OFTEN TO OUR FIRMAMENT, PERHAPS WE SHOULD AVOID A LOT OF PROBLEMS."

- I am happy that we can see eye to eye on this, that although we can believe in different things we really should all strive to further see how much the same we are and work towards solving a lot of issues.

xxariesxx · Oct 26, 2008, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by inthebox

Some examples for there are too numerous to state:

YMCA
Salvation army
Mother theresa
God's Pantry
Any local Christian pregnancy center

It is the Jesus' example of service to others that " brings people together" :)

I will concede that there are not enough of us living out our faith.
Or those who use religion for their own goals. :(

Yes. "blessed are the poor in spirit." I can't tell you how strong, to me, the testimony is of one who has sinned [ drug user, gang member, promiscuous, criminal etc... ] and is now a Christ follower. Or the person who has cancer, or a sick child - and they rely on their faith in God even more.

Yes, people come before the Lord in their time of need, for comfort, with a broken spirit, desperate: for they know that the solution is not within themselves, or money, or other people. Yes, this is me!

Yes, that is me! I'm productive [ family, med professional ] and I am happy in the Lord's blessings and His guidance :)

Absolutely agree.
I am a sinner. God forgives me. God loves me. I should forgive and love others because of this and because my sin is no better than anyone elses'

I do not disagree there are numerous programs and others who have brought people together through religion. As a whole, through history and even today, there is much more separation caused by it however.

About you finding God through your hard moments in life, I don not want to offend you in any case. I'm glad you are you doing much better now and seem to be happy, and I wish you the best.

Credendovidis · Oct 26, 2008, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Capuchin

... Many atheists would love to believe in God...

May I enquire to your source of this wild claim?
I know many Atheists. But I do not know a single Atheist who would love to believe in God.
What a nonsense claim!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

arcura · Oct 26, 2008, 07:45 PM

xxariesxx,
Thanks for your opinions.
They were interesting,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ernestpaquin · Oct 28, 2008, 07:06 AM

Hello, this is Ernest Norman Paquin, thank you for responding to my inquiry more or less instead of question. I would not kill the Son of God not for any reason, I'll add that; if people want to free themselves from sin than they can join the many millions who free themselves and start over every year on New Years... and no one has to die, you see? Anyway, my book entitled "Find Me, Eve" is available on most online bookstores. It is about time traveling back to the Garden of eden and setting things right. I personally do not believe that the Adam and Eve scenario happened they way it popularly believed. It entered my mind shortly after I asked God "how to make the world a better place" it was revealed as being an accident of scientific nature with time travel being not only the cause but also the answer. I mean even if "the apple" part is true then perhaps Eve did take a bite and turned and said, "this tastes wrong, here Adam you take a bite and tell me why,". Perhaps Radioactive fallout from the time travel accident contaminated everything back then, the apple for example.
If you are interested in knowing more of my story then you can find me through Yahoo, Google and maybe even Roadrunner, in your search type in keywords; Ernest Norman Paquin or Find Me, Eve. Thanks and I hope you enjoy the story.

Credendovidis · Oct 29, 2008, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Capuchin

... Many atheists would love to believe in God...

May I enquire to your source of this wild claim?
I know many Atheists. But I do not know a single Atheist who would love to believe in God.
What a nonsense claim!!

And I still do not see any source information posted here by you.
So it must have been nothing but an empty hot air wild claim...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

michealb · Oct 29, 2008, 06:46 PM

I think what he means by we would love to believe is that we understand the desire to think that something is guiding everything that somewhere someone is in control. I can understand that it scares people to think that no one is guiding the ship per say. I understand that, it can be a scary thing that the bad stuff happening to you isn't because of some story that always leads to a happy ending if you just follow some simple rules but just the hand you were dealt and it's up to you to make the most of your hand.

So there you go one atheist who would love to believe in God, Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. I bet even you would like it if there were simple rules to follow for immortality in heaven. Just because we would like something to be true doesn't weaken our position it just means we understand their position to a point.

arcura · Oct 29, 2008, 08:02 PM

Michaelb.
Thanks for that post.
I think you are on to something there.
I enjoyed it.
Fred

Unknown008 · Oct 30, 2008, 02:23 AM

I second that... it's interesting.:)

ernestpaquin · Oct 30, 2008, 08:37 AM

Hey fellas, this is Ernest Norman Paquin. I am not certain if the recent post(s) pertain to me being and atheist. I am not. I am so convicted to my beliefs that God not only thought me up but all of us , using of course extreme technology and design. I repeat that I am a new member to this (chat-post) of sorts so if it helps you can call me Ernie. Thanks, and take care.

Capuchin · Oct 30, 2008, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by michealb

I think what he means by we would love to believe is that we understand the desire to think that something is guiding everything that somewhere someone is in control. I can understand that it scares people to think that no one is guiding the ship per say. I understand that, it can be a scary thing that the bad stuff happening to you isn't because of some story that always leads to a happy ending if you just follow some simple rules but just the hand you were dealt and it's up to you to make the most of your hand.

So there you go one atheist who would love to believe in God, Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. I bet even you would like it if there were simple rules to follow for immortality in heaven. Just because we would like something to be true doesn't weaken our position it just means we understand their position to a point.

Thank you for clarifying for me, sometimes it's hard to find the right words :)

arcura · Oct 30, 2008, 12:58 PM

Ernie,
Welcome aboard.
I hope you have a nice journey with us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Unknown008 · Oct 31, 2008, 01:31 AM

Yup, Ernie, welcome in the thread! Your book sound interesting... oh yes, this is not a chat room, but more a question-answer board and discussions by means of posts. Hope you'll be in the discussion too! Just need to keep cool if some statements seem... not appropriate or offensive, OK?