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Jesus also said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." and yet doing so is not a requirement of salvation. Or how about "forgive everybody of all their offenses against you" but yet doing so is not a REQUIREMENT for salvation. "End disputes quickly." "Let others see your good works." "Do not swear oaths at all." "Do not worry about your material needs." "Judge not, lest ye be judged" "When you fast, do it secretly, and not for show" Shall I go on? All these things He said to do and yet none of them are requirement for salvation... sure they are things that should be done just as many things that one would expect out of a so-called"good person" but I don't see how you can relate baptism, or any of these things, as mandatory. |
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 Originally Posted by arcura
refer: I Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. God says we are in jeopardy every hour, and thus new life in the Spirit will guide us as Jesus does protect us. Baptism gives you the (gift) of being dead, so you can rise to be with Our Father in heaven. refer: I Corinthains 15:29-30 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? Note: Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Instead: Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. From: I Corinthians 15:33-34 |
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Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe [no mention of baptism] will be damned. |
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He who believes and likes chocolate will be saved. He who does not believe will be damned. Is this statement ANY less true... and yet, would you take it to believe that liking chocolate is a requirement of being saved? (I KNOW... this isn't WRITTEN... and I am not making an attempt at adding anything to the Bible... but humor me) |
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Then tell me how will you rise if you are not dead first as in the death of baptism offers new life under God? I ask because the word tells also of that question. Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection ___________________ Question written refer: I Corinthains 15:29-30 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? |
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Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36). I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24). I can quote scripture, too. So there! :p |
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I don't mean to mock neither the Word nor you. My answer was within the scripture I posted. "how will you rise if you are not dead first as in the death of baptism offers new life under God?" Well because "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life" That's why. My perceived "mockery" was slighted more at myself because in all the years of religious discussions I have had here, I have rarely EVER, if ever at all, actually recited scripture. Inside joke, if you will. |
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That is your choice "Free Will" nothing makes you do what you hold as Free Will but you will be accountable to that Free Will. I on the other hand back everything that I do believe by refer in God's Word. My choice, and I will agree to be accountable to that free will. Can you see the difference? I believe my path stays as one with "Christ" because my free will is "His Will" by "The Word." It also always allows others to connect with "God's Word." Plus my path is in my heart and mind taken of choice to do God's Will. The scripture you quoted: I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24). Believing and hearing are two suggestions to doing obedience for Our Father. So in hearing His words, any word of God such as on baptism are you doing? Yes, so the doer is not deceived in thinking he just hears, and he is a believer Do you believe in baptism as death with Christ? And do you believe in Christ's death and resurrection? Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36). Everything written makes a complete circle of meaning in hope, faith, and staying in the light. And I could refer scripture..but I believe you know scripture |
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Wondergirl.
You are purposely distorting this passage... to fit what you WANT to believe. Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be damned. Both belief and baptism are required for salvation. The "And IS baptized" makes that clear. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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Originally Posted by arcura
He who does not believe will be damned. Not being baptized will not damn anyone. Thus, being baptized will not save anyone. What if someone has been baptized, then rejects God? Is that person still saved and will go to heaven? |
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So the question naturally arises: What does this statement mean? And what does it mean when Luke tells us that, in response to Peter's exhortation to "save yourselves from this crooked generation," then they that received his word were baptized?
To answer this we must ask ourselves first what we mean by the word "saved." I am afraid we have a very wrong idea of salvation. All that most of us know about salvation is that we shall be saved from hell and into heaven; or alternatively, that we are saved from our sins to live henceforth a holy life. But we are wrong. In Scripture we find that salvation goes further than that. For it is concerned not so much with sin and hell, or holiness and heaven, but with something else. We know that every good gift that God offers to us is given to meet and counter a contrasting evil. He gives us justification because there is condemnation. He gives us eternal life because there is death. He offers us forgiveness because there are sins. He brings us salvation-because of what? Justification is in terms of condemnation, heaven is in terms of hell, forgiveness is in relation to sins. Then to what is salvation related? Salvation, we shall see, is related to the cosmos, the world. Satan is the personal enemy of Christ. He works through the flesh of man to produce this pattern of things on the earth in which we have all become involved; not one of us is exempt. And this whole cosmic pattern is peculiarly at odds with God the Father. I think we all know how the three dark forces, the world, the flesh and the devil, stand in opposition to the three divine persons. The flesh is ranged against the Holy Spirit as Paraclete, Satan himself against Christ Jesus as Lord, and the world against the Father as Creator. What we are speaking of as the cosmos always stands opposed to God as Father and Originator. His was the eternal plan in creation hinted at in the words "It was very good," a plan toward which he has not ceased to work. From before the foundation of the world he had purposed in his heart to have on earth an order of which mankind would be the pinnacle and which should freely display the character of his Son. But Satan intervened. Using this earth as his springboard and man as his tool, he usurped God's creation to make of it instead something centered in himself and reflecting his own image. Thus this alien system of things was a direct challenge to the divine plan. So today we are confronted by two worlds, two spheres of authority, having two totally different and opposed characters. For me now it is no mere matter of a future heaven and hell; it is a question of these two worlds today, and of whether I belong to an order of things of which Christ is sovereign Lord, or to an opposed order of things having Satan as its effective head. Thus salvation is not so much a personal question of sins forgiven or of hell avoided. It is to be seen rather in terms of a system from which we come out. When I am saved, I make my exodus out of one whole world and my entry into another. I am saved now out of that whole organized realm which Satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God. If that is the world, what then is salvation? Salvation means that I escape from that. I go out, I make an exit from that all-embracing cosmos. I belong no more to Satan's pattern of things. I set my heart on that upon which God's heart is set. I take as my goal his eternal purpose in Christ, and I step into that and am delivered from this. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. What Jesus said he plainly means. I take that step of faith: I believe and am baptized, and I come out a saved man. That is salvation. So never let us regard baptism as of small concern. Tremendous things hang upon it. It is no less a question than of two violently opposing worlds and of our translation from the one into the other. Chapter 3 of 1 Peter. There the apostle tells us how "the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water" (verse 20). The water, he says, is a figure or likeness, or (as the R.V. margin reads) an antitype, of something else. "Which also in the antitype doth now save you, even baptism." So baptism, he reasons, saves us now. Clearly Peter believed in our salvation through baptism as firmly as he believed in Noah's salvation through water. Please remember, I am not saying regeneration, and I am not saying deliverance from hell or from sin. Understand clearly that we are talking here about salvation. It is not just a question of terms; it concerns our being fundamentally severed from today's world system. There in Noah's day we find a wholly corrupt world. Created first by God, the earth had become corrupted by man's act on that day when he placed himself under Satan. Sin, once introduced, had developed and run riot, until even God's Holy Spirit cried Enough! Things had reached a state where they could never be remedied; they could only be judged and removed. So God commanded Noah to build an ark, and to bring his family and the creatures into it, and then the flood came. By it they were "lifted up above the earth" upon waters that covered "all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven." Every living thing, both man and beast, perished and those only who rode the waters in the ark were saved. The significant thing here is not just that they escaped death by drowning. That is not the point. The real point for us is that they were the only people to come out from that corrupt system of things, that world under water. Personal life is the inevitable consequence of coming out, personal perdition of staying in, but salvation is the coming out itself, not the effect of it. Note this difference for it is a great one. Salvation is essentially a present exit from a doomed order which is Satan's. Praise God, they came out! How? Through the waters. So today when believers are baptized they go symbolically through water, just as Noah passed in the ark through the waters of the flood. And this passage through water signifies their escape from the world, their exodus from the system of things that, with its prince, is under the divine sentence. May I say this especially to those who are being baptized today.' Please remember, you are not the only one who is in the water. As you step down into the water, a whole world goes down with you. When you come up, you come up in Christ, in the ark that rides the waves, but your world stays behind. For you, that world is submerged, drowned like Noah's, put to death in the death of Christ and never to be revived. It is by baptism that you declare this. "Lord, I leave my world behind. Thy Cross separates me from it for ever!" Speaking figuratively, therefore, when you go through the waters of baptism everything belonging to the former system of things is cut off by those waters never to return. You alone emerge. For you it is a passage into another world, a world where you will find a dove and the fresh leaves of olive trees. You go out of the world that is under judgment, into a world that is marked by newness of divine life. You ask me now whether it matters if we are not baptized. My only answer is that the Lord himself commanded it (Matt. 28:19). And it was a step from which he himself refused to be dissuaded (Matt. 3:13-15). Peter describes baptism as the appeal, or testimony, of a good conscience towards God (verse 21). A testimony is a declaration. So through this act you say something, you declare where you stand, perhaps without using words but certainly by what you do. Passing through the water you proclaim to the whole universe that you have left your world behind and have entered into something utterly new. That is salvation. You take a public stand where God has placed you in Christ. This helps to explain why in Scripture we find passages concerning salvation which are hard to interpret if we relate salvation only to hell or to sin. It illumines, for instance, the apparently difficult words of Paul and Silas to the jailer at Philippi. The man asked, "What must I do to be saved?" What will your answer be? If you are a sound evangelical preacher in the present day, you will say with assurance, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." But Paul in fact added: "thou and thy house." Do you really mean to say, I can hear you exclaim, that if I believe on the Lord Jesus, both I and my family will be saved? Now once again we must be careful. Paul did not say, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou and thy house will have eternal life. He said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house." Remember, he is concerned with a system of things, and with the jailer's repudiation of and exit from that system. When, as head of his family, that man makes the declaration that from that day forward he and his house are going to serve the Lord, and when that declaration becomes publicly known, even people passing through the street will point in the door and say, "They are Christian folk." That is what it means to be saved. You declare that you belong to another system of things. People point to you and say, "Oh, yes, that is a Christian family; they belong to the Lord!" That is the salvation which the Lord desires for you, that by your public testimony you declare before God, "My world has gone; I am entering into another." May the Lord give us that kind of salvation, to find ourselves uprooted entire out of the old, doomed order of things and firmly planted in the new, divine one. So, to recapitulate, we have here two worlds. On the one hand there is the world in Adam, held fast in bondage to Satan; on the other hand there is the new creation in Christ, the sphere of activity of God's Holy Spirit. How do you and I get out of the one sphere, Adam, into the other sphere, Christ? If you are uncertain how to answer that question, may I ask you another? How did you get into Adam in the first place? For the way of entry indicates the way out. You entered the sphere of Adam by being born into Adam's race. How then do you get out? Obviously by death. And how, in turn, do you enter the sphere of Christ? The answer is the same: by birth. The way of entry into the family of God is by new birth to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Pet. 1:3). Having become united with him by the likeness of his death, you are united with him also by the likeness of his resurrection (Rom. 6:5). Death puts an end to your relationship with the old world, and resurrection brings you into living touch with this new one. Finally, what occupies the gap? What is the steppingstone between those two worlds? Is it not burial? "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death" (Rom. 6:4). From one point of view there is a grim finality about those words "buried into death." My history in Adam has already been concluded in the death of Christ, so that when I walk away from that burial I can say I am a "finished" man. But I can say more, for, praise God, it is no less true that there is the other side. Since "Christ was raised from the dead," when I come out of the water and walk away, I may walk "in newness of life" (6:4). This double outcome of the Cross is implied too in the preceding words of Romans 6:3. "Are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Here in a single sentence the two aspects of baptism are again hinted at. It is baptism into two things. First, we who believe were "baptized into his death." This is a tremendous fact, but is it all? Not by any means, for in the second place the same verse says that we were "baptized into Christ Jesus." A baptism into the death of Christ ends my relation with this world, but a baptism into Christ Jesus as a living Person, Head of a new race, opens up for me a new world of things altogether. Going into the water I simply act the whole thing out, affirming publicly that the "judgment of this world" became real to me from the day when the "lifted up" Son of man drew me to himself. What a Gospel to preach to the whole creation! Written by Watchman Nee |
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Originally Posted by arcura
Eph. 2:8,9 says, "By FAITH are you saved...." Baptism is not mentioned. What saved the people from the OT? They were not baptized. Are you saying they were not saved? Hebrews 11 says they were. It says their FAITH saved them. |
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Wondergirl, Yes I believe that it IS their faith that saved them. I believe the old testatment sacrifices covered their sins. On this side of the Cross, Christ blood WASHES our sins. It is an INSULT to our LORD to add anything to salvation. But you will never convience anyone that wants to believe otherwise. My goodness how messed up we are in christianity, all because we will not rightly divide the Word of God. |
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Wondergirl,
No, I do not say they the people of the OT were snot saved. They had ritual baptizm even then to wash was sins. They had their day of atonement. They had faith yes. They sacrifices in the temple that washed away their sins with animal blood. It to faith do have them do the things that were required of them. Faith alone did not save them. Even then a faith without works is dead just like today. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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