[ETWolverine]

Hi folks.

Remember the quote that Ben Franklin made? The one that said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." I can't remember the number of times I have heard people use that quote as justification against the USA Patriot Act. The USA Patriot Act has half the nation in an uproar over the perception that our freedoms are somehow being curtailed.

Yet what freedoms, exactly have we lost with the USA Patriot act? What essential liberties have been curtailed? OK, so you have to wait a little longer at the airport, and maybe you need to show your ID a little more often. But other than that, are we any less free than we were before the USA Patriot act was enacted? Freedom to travel, freedom earn, freedom to worship, freedom to gather... all of these freedoms remain intact and untouched, despite the USA Patriot act.

However, the same people who were the strongest opponents of the USA Patriot Act because it MIGHT somehow limit our freedoms seem to be the same people who support a government bailout that includes government control of some of the biggest corporate entities in the world.

Doesn't it scare any of you that with the government in direct control of the largest corporations in America, the government can price-fix, tax, regulate, and otherwise manipulate markets without even needing a vote of Congress?

These are REAL freedoms that are at stake. The freedom to earn a living, the freedom to keep our money and the freedom spend it as we wish will all be affected.

As I have mentioned in other posts, the wording of Ben Franklin's phrase is important. He speaks of giving up ESSENTIAL liberties for A LITTLE safety. The USA Patriot Act takes nothing essential from us, and in turn we get a LOT of safety. That is a deal that Ben Franklin would have made in a heartbeat.

But for a little financial safety, we seem ready to give up some of the essential liberties of capitalism that made us what we are... the world's sole superpower... through the nationalization of Americas largest businesses.

And the very people who were loudest when speaking of the USA Patriot Act stealing our freedoms are silent about this bailout and the freedoms we are GUARANTEED to lose as a result of this act of blatant socialism. In fact, many of them are the biggest supporters of the bailout.

What's going on here?

Elliot

[Wondergirl]

Give most of the $700B to the Main Street banks.

[tomder55]

I want to give my share of it to my daughter to help her wit ha downpayment .

If I skipped a payment or 2 of monthly rent I would be evicted. Why is a homeowner entitled to the money of a renter to help them keep their home? In some cases ,the renter will be paying tax money to help the landlord keep the house. The more I think about it the more insane it gets... Because this is what is being billed as a fair alternative... giving the renters money to the banker, who holds the mortgage of the landlord, who bought the house because it was an investment.
Socializing debt is Mussolini-style fascism .

[inthebox]

Give most of the $700B to the Main Street banks.

Give 700B to the 90 +% of homeowners that actually pay the mortgage on time?

Unlike the Wallstreet investment banks, our administration and congress [ Dems and Reps ], these homeowners have demonstrated basic fiscal responsibility.

[Wondergirl]

Socializing debt is Mussolini-style fascism .

Heavens yes! Deregulation is what we need!

[Wondergirl]

Give 700B to the 90 +% of homeowners that actually pay the mortgage on time?

Unlike the Wallstreet investment banks, our administration and congress [ Dems and Reps ], these homeowners have demonstrated basic fiscal responsibility.

I'm thinking every church body of any religion along with groups of concern citizens who don't belong to a church can adopt homeowners in crisis and help them with their mortgages. Meanwhile, the Main Street banks will do their part.

[inthebox]

http://www.southlandchristian.org/as...2challenge.pdf

Some already do . [ by the way - all the challenges have been met ]

No government interference/ regulations / mandates, just individual initiative.




Back to ET's point:

Liberty has its costs.
Capitatlism has its costs.
Both are well worth those costs.



Now that we face a financial crisis, in part caused by the government

Obama–ACORN–CRA–Congress–Democratic Party–Fannie Mae–Freddie Mac–Bailout–Socialism– Just Say No! « Pronk Palisades

Mandating risky lending practices [ CRA ], there are those, who complain of the patriot act, wanting that same government to use taxpayor money to bail the banks/defaulters out? :confused:

[excon]

Hello El:

I don't know. I thought Bush was YOUR guy. You always said watch what he does, not what he says. Well, I'm watching. He's acting kind of liberal, doncha think?

By the way, what I liked about the congress woman's plan, is that it WASN'T a plan. She didn't want to gve our money away either.

excon

[ETWolverine]

I agree, excon. This is a socialist response to the problem, and will lead to more socialism. And there have always been issues where I disagreed with Bush. Primarily, those have been on the issue of illegal immigration. But this is another case where I disagree with him.

Nobody says that I have to agree with everything the guy does, even if I support him. Nor does my disagreement with him on this issue mean that I no longer support him.

I stand by my support of Bush's correct actions, and my disagreement with his incorrect ones. As defined by me, of course. :rolleyes:

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

Back to ET's point:

Liberty has its costs.
Capitatlism has its costs.
Both are well worth those costs.



Now that we face a financial crisis, in part caused by the government

Obama–ACORN–CRA–Congress–Democratic Party–Fannie Mae–Freddie Mac–Bailout–Socialism– Just Say No! « Pronk Palisades

mandating risky lending practices [ CRA ], there are those, who complain of the patriot act, wanting that same government to use taxpayor money to bail the banks/defaulters out? :confused:

Exactly my point.

If government intervention is the right answer to the financial crisis, why is it NOT the correct response to terrorist attacks?

Elliot

[Choux]

First of all, the Republican Party is falling apart. Ths is a result of the disastrous Presidency of Bush who will go down in history as the worst Presidence in the history of the Republic. Unregulated, free wheeling Capitalism under an unconcerned Bush with its booms and busts has gone BUST and will bring down America unless the government tries to rescue our economy.

There is NO FREEDOM when one small segment of society can destroy the economy for all Americans!!

Most Americans see this very clearly. I think you see that too, Elliot.

Your stance is that the American economy should go down the dumper into the dustbin of history in a long disastrous depression. No credit, no economy, no growth, no nothing, no recovery.

America can't allow free wheeling no regulation Capitalism destroy our country! That is an insane idea unrelated with freedom for *all* Americans; freedom from the greedy and powerful.


.

[ETWolverine]

Chou,

What you fail to realize is that what made our country so great... the greatest strength we have... is that "free wheeling capitalism".

It is that "free wheeling capitalism" that has created every scientific, technological, and medical breakthrough in our history.

It is that "free wheeling capitalism" that has created the industry, jobs, and products that drive the economy.

It is that "free wheeling capitalism" that has created our military strength.

It is that "free wheeling capitalism" that made us the single most powerful and prosperous and educated nation in history.

Everything in the modern world, from the steam engine, to the cotton gin, to the light bulb, to the telephone, to modern computers, cell phones, and I-Pods are a product of "free wheeling capitalism". People saw an opportunity to create something new or improve something old and sell it for a profit. That is "free wheeling capitalism". And it created the modern world.

On the other hand, every attempt to regulate capitalism throughout history, from socialism to communism, to fascism to dictatorships has failed and produced tragic results. Even out own attempts to regulate our capitalism have produced severe backlashes.

For instance, in his attempt to control the economy via the New Deal, FDR made the Great Depression last 10 years longer than it should have.

More recently, in terms of our current crisis, the very existence of Fannie and Freddie are what initiated the mortgage crisis to create lending to low-income families. (Incidentally, that was also a product of the New Deal.) It was further exacerbated by the creation of CRA, which forced banks to make loans to low-income families or face penalties. These were government attempts to regulate the economy. And it was those regulations... those attempts to curb "free wheeling capitalism"... that created our current problems.

You can argue all you want about "free wheeling capitalism". The fact is that if the government had stayed out of it, Fannie and Freddie would never have collapsed because Fannie and Freddie would never have existed. Government-guaranteed sub-prime loans would not be in trouble, because there would never have been any government-guaranteed sub-prime loans. And the investment houses that purchased that sub-prime paper would not have collapsed because that sub-prime paper would not exist.

It is REGULATION that caused these problems, Chou, not de-regulation.

Furthermore, banks and brokerage houses are some of the most highly regulated businesses in existence. They are regularly spot-checked and audited by various government agencies... I've been through quite a few such audits in my career, and they ain't just cursory exams. They are tough audits. Supposedly you worked for a bank, way back when... or so you once told me. You should know that.

And yet, despite the FDIC, the OCC, the Department of the Treasury, and even OSHA regulating banks, investors and brokers like Lehman, WAMU, and AIG, those organizations failed anyway.

So at the very least, Regulation didn't prevent the problem.

So do you really believe that MORE regulation is the answer? What a crock.

Elliot

[tomder55]

Hat tip to Trandy

This explains all .

YouTube - Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

[NeedKarma]

Good video.

[excon]

Hello tom:

You may be right about the Democrats being responsible... However, your Republican bankers made a LOT of money off them. Did I say a LOT OF MONEY?? Yeah, they cried all the way to the bank.

But, the Republicans response is a "bailout", that is a mistake of monumental proportions. It makes the Democrats mistake look puny.

At least the Democrats mistake was to try to share the wealth with poor folks. The Republicans mistake is to rip EVERYBODY off to support their bankrupt friends.

I don't know which Republican will stand by his principles. I hear 'em yelling about the bill, but I don't see any of 'em saying no. I'll betcha Ron Paul doesn't vote for it.

excon

[tomder55]

I will make a bold prediction before the vote. Many of the Republican congressional delegation will walk out of the vote in protest.

In this case President Bush is aligned with the Democrats and Nancy Mimi Pelosi is desperately trying to get Republican votes so she can claim this is a Bush-Republican bailout . She wants it passed but she don't want to own it.

[magprob]

Yes! There are some good Republicans left in Washington. The Grand Theft Bailout IS a CRAP SANDWICH!

The system is deleveraging and nothing can stop it. Paulson has yet to accept the new reality.

Besides, there was no guarantee that the banks would use the money in the way that Paulson imagines. As one Wall Street veteran explained to me, "I don't see one penny of that $700 billion ending up helping the broader economy. I see it being used to prop up share prices so the insiders can salvage as much as possible when dumping their shares".

Indeed, the $700 billion is just part of a massive "pump and dump" scheme engineered with the tacit approval of the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Once the banksters have offloaded their fraudulent securities and crappy paper on Uncle Sam, they will do whatever they need to do pad the bottom line and drive their stocks up. That means they will shovel capital into hard assets, foreign currencies, gold, interest rate swaps, carry trade swindles, and Swiss bank accounts. The notion that they will recapitalize so they can provide loans to US consumers and businesses in a slumping economy is a pipedream. One in which we will get "piped."

[jon123]

I feel very much unsafe and truly victimized by this unconstitutional patriot program too. It is sad to see that there are specially priviledged people such as big lobbiests corporate powerful humans exploiting this new age law.. after reading this, I'm not sure what is going down! But down we shall surely go in my opinion Homeland Security

[NeedKarma]

Homeland Security

That website is scary religious babble.

[Wondergirl]

That website is scary religious babble.

I'm a Christian and agree with you 100%.