[arcura]

Sorry folks but I must agree with Galveston1.
Things prophesied (predicted) many years before they happen is Supernatural to my way of thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Alty]

Of course you do arcura, you base your beliefs on the bible, to believe it isn't factual would be to admit that God doesn't exist. I understand that.

Sorry, I believe in God, but I still have to say that there are many other explanations about these "predictions" in the bible.

[michealb]

I agree if I could predict what was going to happen before it happened every time with great detail that would be supernatural but that's not what the bible does so its not.

[arcura]

michealb,
I disagree.
The bible does predict certain events with amazing detail in many cases such as the crucifixion of Jesus many, many years before it happened.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Galveston1]

Y'all just haven't read the scriptures I gave you. You dismiss it without knowing what you are talking about. I think that is really narrow minded. I expect more from intellectuals!

[michealb]

It doesn't matter what the scripture says because even if it gets every detail right if you can't prove beyond a doubt of when it was written it doesn't matter. The other problem is you need all of the writing from one particular author to prove that the author didn't write a huge amount of material and bound to get one thing correct. The other problem with predicting the coming of Jesus in particular is there are hundreds of stories that tell the same tale as Jesus with a minor differences(Its the standard hero story of the ancient world). Then of course there is the question if Jesus was even a real person anyone can write a follow up story if they know the original. Until the supernatural is proven to exist, if there is a plausible natural solution reason insists you use it. If you do anything else you might as well make up your own fantasy world exactly to your liking, instead of using someone else's.

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Yes. Considoring Eratosthenes was able to calculate the circumference. It would be a pretty safe concultion that if he was calculating circumference he knew the earth was a round. Also if you do a little bit of history work you'll find the idea of the world being flat is actually fairly new as far as ideas go not really gaining ground until the 12th centuary when the Church started to push the idea.

Ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy? Your arguments are so weak.

He didn't the bible reference only said "the stars are beyond numbering" Which just means there are a lot of them and the author didn't bother to count. You are assigning the number not the author which if you can assign a number they are not beyond counting.

Again, you are just displaying ignorance of the subject matter. I think you need to do a little more scriture reading and studying before you make continue to make invalid, hot air points. First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.

He didn't again you are assigning more knowledge to the author than what is written. He said "all the fountains of the great deep." Springs on land were a very important part of life back then, people knew that water welled up from underground it was easy to see. So it's not really a stretch for the author who knew that the source of water on land came from fountains it wouldn't really be a strech for them to be under the sea as well.

In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.

Because the knowledge had been lost. Did you miss that part about me saying that much of what ancient people knew has been lost to the ages. You can also get credit for discovering something if you find out how it happens, even if everyone already knows it happens.

Right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"

They used their eyes, ears, noses, and hands. I think you would be surprised just how much science can be done with the equipment we are born with.

Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there. :o

[michealb]

Your reaching and lacking in reading comprehension.

ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy?

Again Eratosthenes is an example of how important knowledge has been lost. Many many other ancient cultures knew the earth was round by observation alone. It's interesting though that when the bible says the earth is round it is a prove of divine inspriation but when it says it's flat it's a metaphore. Wish I could use that when I was wrong.

First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.

Again your not looking at this as an ancient man. First more stars could be seen by ancient man than we can see today. Light pollution sucks. Second there probably were more than the ancient author could count the least you could say that it would be a very daunting task to even try. Plus the stars move which makes it even harder. It is much more likely that the author was using metaphor since indeed even if you try only count the ones that he could see the task would be nearly impossilbe to get an acurate count there for they would not be able to be numbered.

In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.

Poor reading comprehension I said since man knew springs cause lakes on land it would not be a strech for someone to guess that there are more or larger springs under the ocean being the source of the ocean. Being incorrect about the source of the ocean in this passage but being correct that there are springs under the ocean. Again a plausible rebutal.

right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"

Why did we loose the important information of how to build pyriamids or did god build the pyriamids too? As for OSE sure take an ancient history class. Your in school go talk to the professor that teaches the course in your school. I sure he/she will be able to tell you much more than I can. Do a Google search and you will find tons of information.

Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there.

Correct me if I'm wrong but no where does the bible mention other Galaxies. We however can look into space and see a very large number of stars. Do me a favor go to a deserted mountain top and try and count the stars. Then tell me it's a far stretch to say that there are more stars than grains of sand.

[arcura]

I MUST agree with Sassyt.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Alty]

I MUST agree with Sassyt.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course you must, because the bible tells you so.

[wish thinking]

The Bible is our guid line to heaven. The bible was not wrote so we can figure out what's to come or what is hidden in the codes.. There is no codes . If God wanted us to know when he was coming back he wouldn't have said he was coming like a thief in the night, not even the angels in heaven know when Jesus is coming.

[arcura]

Altenweg,
Correction.
The bible does not tell me that I MUST believe what is written in it.
But because I have had so many personal experiences with God Himself and what the bibles has taught me about Him that I do believe that the bible does contain His word.
I emphasize that it is due to PERSONAL experiences through answered prayers and the fact that I believe God saved my life in the Korean war.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Alty]

Fred, I too have had experiences, personal experiences with God. Enough experiences that I still believe regardless of 10 years of terribel treatment in Catholic school. Ten years of the wonderful Catholics belittling me, ostrasizing me, telling me I'm a bastard because my parents, although legally married, weren't married in the Catholic church. Ten years of sitting on the pew while the rest of my classmates went up to receive communion, a wafer for goodness sake, a simple store bought wafer. I couldn't have that wafer and be "blessed" because to them I was not a child of God. Ten years of bible study, I'm surprised I was allowed to tarnish their book by reading it, after all, I'm not Catholic. Ten years of my friends parents calling my house and telling my wonderful Mom and Dad that in their eyes I was being neglected because they did not baptize me as Catholic. Ten years of being told I was going to hell because I didn't go to their church. Ten years Fred, ten long years.

After all of that, most people would have walked out of that institution refusing to believe in God, not me. I have found God, but not in a book and not in Church. You see, I don't need a book to believe in God, nor do I need Church. God is in my heart and soul.

Peace and kindness to you too Fred, and I do mean that. I know that your faith is important to you, just because we don't agree doesn't mean that I don't respect what you have to say and the choices you've made. To each their own. :)

Alty

[arcura]

Altenweg,
You were wrongly treated. Terribly so!
Very much so.
It seems that THOSE Catholics were not taught about what Christian love is all about as Jesus taught by both word and example.
This Catholic would NEVER treat you that way.
You are a child of God as am I so you are my sister in that regard.
I have never told anyone they were going to hell.
The bible I believe in tells us all that God id the ONLY judge of who goes where.
It seems that there was very poor bible instruction at the school you went to.
Peace, Kindness, and love,
Fred

[Alty]

Fred,

Thank you for those kind words, they mean a lot to me.

I realize that not every Catholic is like the people I went to school with,
And really, I have nothing against anyone's chosen religion, be it Catholic,
Lutheran, Mormon, whatever.

I know what's in my heart and soul, and I live my life trying to be the best person
I can be. I do pray at home, and I do accept God into my life. I just won't ever
Step foot in a Church again, nor will I accept the bible as the word of God. God
Is a part of who I am, and I am thankful for that.

Oops, we've strayed off topic, sorry SassyT, I apologize.

Peace Fred. :)

[arcura]

Altenweg.
Off topic it may be but I think it is imortant that I an others know how you and others have been treated by some un-Christ-like Christians.
Thanks for sharing.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[michealb]

Actually they were being Christians. The bible is full of references about torturing and killing other tribes because they don't believe or aren't "god's children" or had sinned.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

[Galveston1]

Yes, Michealb, everyone will bow before Jesus and admit that He is Lord. Even you. Doesn't that just chap you? Now, me, I don't mind. I already do that.

Come on over to this side, I guarantee you won't be disappointed!

[michealb]

So much for free will.

As far as not being disappointed my life has greatly improved since I stopped wasting time praying for things and instead spent my time getting those things myself. It's almost amazing what you can accomplish in 5 to 10 minutes a day spent doing rather than praying. I recommend you try it sometime I guarantee your life will improve.

[NeedKarma]

So much for free will.

As far as not being disappointed my life has greatly improved since I stopped wasting time praying for things and instead spent my time getting those things myself. It's almost amazing what you can accomplish in 5 to 10 minutes a day spent doing rather than praying. I recommend you try it sometime I guarantee your life will improve.

This is my experience as well.