[Capuchin]

Why does it matter so much whether the wine and bread actually become flesh and blood, or are symbols that represent them? But if it is so terribly important to know, it should be fairly easy to distinguish muscle tissue from wheat flour, and blood from wine in the laboratory. Why not just test them?

Didn't you know, Jesus was made from wheat flour and wine...

[Galveston1]

Let's try this again. Why do you insist on a literal undrstanding of Jesus' words at that last supper, but not on this occasion?

Matt 12:47-50
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

I posted this on another thread, but it is just as valid as evidence here.

[arcura]

Galveston1,
I insist on understanding literally what Jesus said at His last Passover supper BECAUSE it was at a Passover supper that he said them.
Thus Jesus IS the Lamp of God who takes away the sins of the world and gives us life eternal.
Jesus is the living Lamb of the Christian Passover called the Eucharist (which means give thanks).
At the original Passover in the old Testament the flawless lamb was slain, it's blood painter over door posts to cause the angel of death to passover and the lamb's flesh was eaten.
With Jesus as the lamb of the Christian passover his blood is drink indeed and his flesh food indeed as He said.
I believe what Jesus said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Galveston1]

Fred, you didn't answer my question. I believe everything you said about Jesus, I just don't believe in the Catholic dogma of trans-substantiation, because I don't believe scripture requires it.

[arcura]

Galveston1,
I DID answer your question.
I said, "I insist on understanding literally what Jesus said at His last Passover supper BECAUSE it was at a Passover supper that he said them."
Jesus said this IS my body... This IS my blood.
I believe what He said.
Thus he IS the sacrificial Lamb of God that takes away sins and gives life.
He IS the living Passover not a symbol like in the old Testament.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Let's try this again. Why do you insist on a literal understanding of Jesus' words at that last supper, but not on this occasion?

Matt 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (KJV)

I posted this on another thread, but it is just as valid as evidence here.

It was no more valid then when I wrote:

In Matthew 13:55 we see the clansmen of Christ, called brothers and sisters as was the custom, who were children of Mary of Cleophas, sister of the Ever Virgin Mary: refer to Matt 27:56, and John 19:25. With proper Hermeneutics we see in the Old Testament the word “brother” to express a broad kinship or clanship as well as the word indicating siblings. Following are selected thought from St. Jerome who argued vehemently that to hold that Christ had siblings was an error:

17. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.

If we were to argue for the literal interpretation of "brother" so as to insist on Jesus having siblings in this instance, then wouldn't that redefine John 19:26-27? Jesus says to John, “Behold thy Mother.” Being redefined in our errant insistence on a literal interpretation would add John to James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude as siblings of Christ; which of course is nonsense.

************************************************** ****
And to the Eucharist we find the bible to be literal.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life…If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world…Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

No play on word, direct simple language, understood then and understood now. “I am the bread,” eat and drink and you will have “life in you”. Eat and you will be raise. Eat my flesh, drink my blood and live. Little doubt as to what Christ meant.

Matt 26:Take ye and eat. This is my body 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins. 29 And I say to you, I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.

In Mathew we see, “This IS my body”. What is not written here is "this is like my body"; "this is symbolic of my body". What is done here is the first transubstantiation; "the transition of one thing into another in some aspect of being"; from bread and wine to the essence of Christ. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist


It's not that Catholics take one literal and the other figuratively. We take both sets of verses as they were intended by the authors. The Eucharist has been and will continue to be the central part of Catholic life.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777 ,
Excellent. Well done and well said.
Also Catholics are not the only ones who believe in the Eucharist. There are several other denominations that do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[ordinaryguy]

It’s not that Catholics take one literal and the other figuratively. We take both sets of verses as they were intended by the authors.

By what means do you become privy to the intentions of the authors?

[Capuchin]

In Mathew we see, “This IS my body”. What is not written here is "this is like my body"; "this is symbolic of my body".

Well done, you've identified that it is a metaphor and not a simile. Just like the world is not actually a stage, although Shakespeare said, metaphorically, that it is. It's still just a literary technique, nothing more.

[De Maria]

Why does it matter so much whether the wine and bread actually become flesh and blood, or are symbols that represent them? But if it is so terribly important to know, it should be fairly easy to distinguish muscle tissue from wheat flour, and blood from wine in the laboratory. Why not just test them?

It's a matter of faith. In the beginning, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit or they will die. They didn't believe Him, ate of the fruit and died spiritually.

In the New Covenant, God told the Apostles that the bread is His Flesh. Those who believe Him will live eternally. Those who don't will die the death.

Genesis 2 17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Well done, you've identified that it is a metaphor and not a simile. Just like the world is not actually a stage, although Shakespeare said, metaphorically, that it is. It's still just a literary technique, nothing more.

We don't deny the symbolic nature of the Eucharist. It is however an efficacious symbol. Jesus made His Flesh appear in the guise of bread in order to signify that it is food for the soul.

However, the Bread is His Flesh. He said so.

John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."

1391 Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."

On the feasts of the Lord, when the faithful receive the Body of the Son, they proclaim to one another the Good News that the first fruits of life have been given, as when the angel said to Mary Magdalene, "Christ is risen!" Now too are life and resurrection conferred on whoever receives Christ.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1391

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Capuchin]

More metaphors! Fantastic! You guys are getting the hang of this!

[arcura]

De Maria,
Well said. Well done.
Jesus clearly said what He meant to say clearly.
Fred

[arcura]

Capuchin,
If you refuse to believe that Jesus said the consecrated bread and wine ARE his body and blood, that is your business.
I will believe what Jesus clearly said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

We don't deny the symbolic nature of the Eucharist. It is however an efficacious symbol. Jesus made His Flesh appear in the guise of bread in order to signify that it is food for the soul.

However, the Bread is His Flesh. He said so.

John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

De Maria

I disagree because the body and blood was given by Christ to saves us, to give us life from the death of sin. We are to eat His flesh as the bread of life, and not like bread alone that is nourishment. Our nourishment from God is the Spiritual Truth that gives life. We are to remember as we drink and eat, that Christ is the that Spiritual Truth, and Christ was worthy in the death of the cross.

Scripture provides evidence of eating Spiritual Truth as the Word of God

Eat The Little Book

Revel 10 : 9-10 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Live By The Word Of God

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Worship Only The Lord

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

Man lives by the Word Jesus

Deu 8:8 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

[JoeT777]

Well done, you've identified that it is a metaphor and not a simile. Just like the world is not actually a stage, although Shakespeare said, metaphorically, that it is. It's still just a literary technique, nothing more.

No doubt you've heard this question before: if a tree falls in the middle of the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a noise? We know that the phenomenon that creates pressure waves in the atmosphere (noise) still occurs whether human receptors are present. To prove it we might put recording devices in the forest (removing the human presence) and wait for the tree to fall. Once it does we have physical proof of the tree falling and that it did, in fact, cause a noise. Even this requires a modicum of faith, not that the tree falling didn't make noise, but faith that the recording was done technically correct, or that the reporting agent interpreted the data correctly. Furhter, this agent telling us about his understanding, may let us hear the recording, or he can write a report. Either way, he needs tell us in a way that relates to our understanding. In doing so he may use metephoric or symbolic language.

Similarly, Gospels factually report what Christ had commanded and what Christ had said would happen. So that we can relate, this may be metaphoric or symbolic in the telling, but this telling doesn't somehow undo the fact of the occurrence. Catholics hold that whether you or I are present, whether you or I believe, the consummated Eucharist transitions from the bread and wine into the real presence of Christ.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

I disagree because the body and blood was given by Christ to saves us, to give us life from the death of sin. We are to eat His flesh as the bread of life, and not like bread alone that is nourishment. Our nourishment from God is the Spiritual Truth that gives life. We are to remember as we drink and eat, that Christ is the that Spiritual Truth, and Christ was worthy in the death of the cross.

Scripture provides evidence of eating Spiritual Truth as the Word of God

Eat The Little Book

Revel 10 : 9-10 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Live By The Word Of God

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Worship Only The Lord

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

Man lives by the Word Jesus

Deu 8:8 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

If we are to eat the “spiritual word” then why did Christ say? I am the bread of life…If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever (John 6:55). Why then did he make his will known even stronger? "He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life" (John 6:55)

If Christ wanted us to eat the spiritual word then why did the Apostle John refer to Christ as, “the word made flesh” (John 1:14)? Scripture not only provides evidence of eating Spiritual Truth as the Word of God, but literal truth too, as Christ said, “eat my flesh,” “drink my blood.”

Where in the above list of your veses, does it say “eat my flesh,” “drink my blood,” and you shall have “everlasting life”? The verses you quoted above only gave good advice for living in this world; but Christ's command to “eat” gives the solution to everlasting life. So, you'll settle for some good advice when you're offered eternity?

Are you not just picking through verses just to bolster your argument? How much more explicit can a verse be? This is figurative and the rest are binding? John 6:48 I am the bread of life…If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world…Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.



JosephT

[arcura]

JoeT777,
Well done.
You are correct, Jesus was NOT speaking anything other than clearly.
He meant what He said and those listening to him knew it.
We know that from the way they reacted.
Some walked away complaining that what Jesus said was a "hard saying".
Peace and kindness.
Notice that He let them go and stood by what He said.
Fred

[Tj3]

Do you believe what Jesus said that the consecrated bread and wine do become the body and blood of Him?

I don't, because Jesus Himself said that He was not speaking of actual flesh.

John 6:61-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
NKJV

Further, it would be sinful if Jesus were to have commanded cannibalism. Cannibalism is seen as a sign of wickedness, and a judgment against those who turn away from God, for example:

Isa 9:18-20
18 For wickedness burns as the fire;
It shall devour the briers and thorns,
And kindle in the thickets of the forest;
They shall mount up like rising smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts
The land is burned up,
And the people shall be as fuel for the fire;
No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand
And be hungry;
He shall devour on the left hand
And not be satisfied;
Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
NKJV

Jesus says in John 6 that those who believed that He commended eating of actual flesh were those who betrayed Him.

I know that there are many who believe it to be true, but I will stand by what scripture says.

[arcura]

Tj3
It is not cannibalism as you and the ancient pagans claimed.
It is bread that has been consecrates into Christ's body as He said.
That proves right there that you just can not or refuse to believe Jesus when He clearly said, "This IS my body" and "This Is my blood" about His consecrated bread and wine.
There is no sense discussing this any further with you.
You mind is made up as is mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred