[CHRISTOPHEROBIN]

HIS WORD? Did you even read what I said?
I'll say it again:
The Bible is a book of man ABOUT GOD. Look to THE BOOK for "FAITH, NOT FACTS".
The Bible is an awesome book. There is so much wisdom in it. It can really help a person when they are in a time of need or are questioning things, but it was written by men ABOUT GOD.
God 'wrote' this reality we exist in, then we wrote a book trying to explain it.
That is the truth.

And, yeah, just to be clear, I did not, and would NEVER call God a liar, don't put words in the mouth of a true believer.
(By the way, I have to get going to work, but I'll check back tonight, if you'd like to continue this discussion.)

God be with you my friend.

Again, fear Him.Bible references that also say to fear Him.In the Torah-Genesis 15:1-20:11-22:12-42:18. Exodus 1:17-1:21-9:20-9:21-9:30-15:16-18:21-20:17-34:10.Leviticus 19:14-19-32-25:17-25:36-25:43.The Holy Bible-Leviticus-25:17- Deuteronomy-4:10-6:2-6:13-6:24-10:12-10:20-14:23-31:12-31:13. Joshua-24:14. 1 Samuel-12:14-12:24 2Kings-17:39. 1 Chronicles-16:25. Nehemiah-5:9. Job-28:28.Psalm-19:9-25:14-33:8-33:18-34:9-96:4-103:11-103:13-103:17-111:10-112:1-115:13-128:147:11. Proverbs-1:7-14:2-22:4-24:21.Eucleiastes-5:7-12:13.Isaiah-8:13. Hosea-3:5. Malachi-2:4and5. Jeremaih-5:22. Mathew-10:28.Luke-12:5-1:50. Romans3:10-18.
2Corinthians7:1. Ephesians5:21. Colossians-3:22. Hebrews-10:31. 1 Peter 2:17. Revelation-14:7-15:4.Do you still believe you don't have to fear God? This should be enough to convince you.

[CHRISTOPHEROBIN]

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.

Remember you just think what we do is silly or even cute in His eyes, why would you be worried.

[Credendovidis]

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.

Remember you just think what we do is silly or even cute in His eyes, why would you be worried.

Are you now reacting to your own posts ?

:)

[BlakeCory]

Are you now reacting to your own posts ?

:)

I noticed that too, that's what happens when arguments go awry.

[BlakeCory]

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.

We can be certain that any descriptive term we use for God, in isolation, will fall well short of illuminating all that He is. The best we can do is to continually appreciate and accept all His many qualities, without neglecting those we do not understand.

Sometimes we are guilty of overlooking the fact that Jesus became a complete man, and then sometimes we are sometimes guilty of forgetting His awesome power, His supremacy and His authority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our image of the peaceful and kind Jesus who calls children to Him and always turns the other cheek. It's a completely accurate although incomplete description of our Lord. As an extension of that image, we may have the idea that if we were to meet Jesus face to face, we would shake His hand, perhaps give Him a hug and then go grab a coffee.

The passage from Isaiah 6:1-5 is a startling reminder of what would happen if we were to actually meet our God face to face, revealed to us in all His true glory. Like Isaiah, in the presence of the almighty God, seated on His throne, we would fall on our knees and proclaim "Woe is me - my eyes have seen the King!"

Let us never forget that God is to be feared. God is to be respected. He is the creator of everything seen and unseen, and deserves our worship and adoration. His power is limitless and without equal. His glory and holiness are beyond our limited measure.

[Moparbyfar]

[QUOTE=CHRISTOPHEROBIN]

Wouldn't a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?

In short, yes. True christians adhere to the commandment to worship only God. Not through idols, or pictures or other humans.
John 4:24 states that God is a spirit so we should worship him with spirit and truth.
Psa 115:4-7 explains how the worship of idols (or any object) is pointless. 2 Cor 5:7 - "we are walking by faith not by sight." Do we really need something in front of us to remind us who we are worshipping?

The same goes for national flags. Our devotion should be to God alone, not man and his country.
John 17:14,15 "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.  I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

These are my thoughts. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. :)

[Credendovidis]

Wouldnt a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?

In short, yes. True christians adhere to the commandment to worship only God. Not through idols, or pictures or other humans.

The first reaction I get from these lines is a direct aversion to your "True christians".
Any post suggesting any view or viewpoint to be "true" should be treated as plague, ebola, STD, or MRSA .
Specially as the only support for that "true" is belief-only based, totally lacking any OSE.

I did not see any mentioning of worshopping of these pictures and carvings in his post.
Why can't you accept that beautiful pictures, statues, and carvings just raise the total ambiance and provide a more open attitude towards worshopping the focus of the Christian belief?

If you simply do not like to be surrounded by pictures etc. than don't : you are free to do so. But to condemn pictures etc. as sin? That is more a display of reformist closed-mindedness.

Note : that does not mean that I agree with CHRISTOPHEROBIN's viewpoint !

:rolleyes:

[Moparbyfar]

Thanks Crede, I was looking at the main title of this question, which mentions worship, or maybe I'm reading into the question too much.
If we have a beautiful painting of scenery on the wall or a pretty glass swan on the mantle, one would assume these are not being worshipped or venerated (if that is what you are talking about), but if it be a statue or picture of Jesus or Mary, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them either Chris. In someone else's home, that is their choice, but not in my home. :)

[arcura]

CHRISTOPHEROBIN
I am a Catholic and I do not worship anything or anyone other than God.
I know many Christians of several denominations where there are crosses and statues and paintings and lead glass widows with beautiful images in them but none are worshiped, only God is.
If someone bows to another person it is not worshiping that person it is paying them honor.
Honor and worship are vastly different things.
I honor, praise, revere, adore, and worship God. Every one of those activities is different than worship.
The icons you speak of are used to remind people of the ever presence of God and/or His saints or of various bible stories.
Several people here have explained that to you in different ways.
I hope that their efforts have help you dispel your fear of religious artifacts for artifacts is really all that they are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[worfpunk]

Sorry I had to leave the discussion for a while, anyway... I agree completely with everything BlakeCory said. He's stated my point of view much more clearly than I've been able to, and I've highlighted below the sections that I am especially referring to:

We can be certain that any descriptive term we use for God, in isolation, will fall well short of illuminating all that He is.
The best we can do is to continually appreciate and accept all His many qualities, without neglecting those we do not understand.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our image of the peaceful and kind Jesus who calls children to Him and always turns the other cheek. It's a completely accurate although incomplete description of our Lord.
The passage from Isaiah 6:1-5 is a startling reminder of what would happen if we were to actually meet our God face to face, revealed to us in all His true glory. Like Isaiah, in the presence of the almighty God, seated on His throne, we would fall on our knees and proclaim "Woe is me - my eyes have seen the King!"

Let us never forget that God is to be feared. God is to be respected. He is the creator of everything seen and unseen, and deserves our worship and adoration. His power is limitless and without equal. His glory and holiness are beyond our limited measure.

OK, see, especially when you say it like that, I completely agree: Just like, when I was a small child, I loved my dad, but I also feared him. Yes, we are but small-minded children compared to God. And He should always, in the sense that BlakeCory means it, be feared, revered, respected, honored, and worshiped.

I guess I'm saying there's a difference between blind fear and fear born from respect.

I hope that clarifies my stance a bit more, and BlakeCory, thank you for stating my point of view in an obviously much more clear fashion than I was able to.

Go be with you all.

"May your troubles be as few and far between as my dear old grandma's teeth"

[arcura]

worfpunk,
I agree 100% with you and BlakeCory on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[notrubillah]

... wow CHRISTOPEROBIN, I aplogize for you having to read so many bad posts... You ask a good question wth a simple answer. You also have a good viewpoint on ONE GOD. I am going to try not to begin quoting scripture so as not to give these other guys so much to seethe over. God reminds throughout the whole Bible to not make or bow down to any graven image; nether should you worship any. God is a spirit, he has no physical body. If you read about world religions, the most important thing to have is and IMAGE of their god or gods. God needs no IMAGE to show His greatness. I would love to have more discussins with you, but as of this thread, I do not want it to become an debate.

[arcura]

notrubillah,
True, God himself tells us nit to worship nay graven image,
But also note the God commanded various images erected or made for various purposes.
The temple He commanded to be built was full of graven images each with a symbolic meaning to aid focus.
Today we have certain Christian denominations that have images in their Churches.
Some are very simple such as a cross. Others are beautiful painting or leaded windows or statues.
They are not there for people to worship but rather to depict a bible story or as an aid to focus a person's attention such as a statue of the holy family or a Christmas cretch display.
Also the bible tells us that Jesus is an image, "The visible image of the invisible God"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

.

[notrubillah]

well... I really do not feel that this is answering CHRISTOPHEROBIN's question. You seem to want to defend your own statues in your comments. I am sorry if your church worships statues, maybe you should find another church, one that worships one God. Angels were erected in the temple of Solomon, Moses erected the brazen serpent, and at first, your argument seems solid. Where you lack understanding is that the brazen serpent was destroyed since people started worshipping it, and where were there ANY statues of humans placed inside a temple? The angels erected above the Arc of the Covenant were not ICONs to remind us of holy people. The man Jesus Christ was the visible image of the invisible God. Jesus reminded us not to make any statues Himself. Jesus when he was on earth did not want to make a following of people that worshiped an image. He came to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel to worship God in Spirit and Truth. It was only after he died that this promise was extended to the gentiles, thanks to Peter. Did Peter or any of the other 120 saints need any ICONs to help them get the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost? If they did not need them then, why would we need them now? I am not trying to step on anybodies toes, if you have a picture of angels, or little statues, go ahead, I personally don't. The question on this post was simple. It is truly that YES, it is a sin to worship any statue or image.

[classyT]

I can see nothing wrong with wearing a cross necklace. It is symbolic of Christianity and a reminder of what Christ did for us. I personally find pictures of the Lord tacky and wouldn't want one in my home. NOT because I think I am worshiping it though... just personal taste.

Now, as far as bowing to any man.. that is where I draw the line. NO WAY. It is wrong, I bow only before the Lord Jesus Christ. The pope had to be saved from his sins the same as I did. It is wrong.

[arcura]

notrubillah,
Please get this straight.
I nor any other Catholic or person of other denominations who have statues or pictures worships them.
I resent the implication that I do. It is purely false.
Where you get that idea from is an old, old distortion of the true facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[classyT]

Well to me it is legalism when you suggest someone CAN'T have a picture of the Lord or a cross or a statue. Put it in perspective... if people are coming before it and bowing and worshipping.. ok I have a problem. But most people just love the Lord and want to display it. You can make anything a sin if you want to.

[arcura]

classyT,
Point well made.
Thank you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[notrubillah]

... When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms? That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to? I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray. God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs? Jesus specifically told us not to. This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

[Akoue]

Notrubillah,

That was quite the little diatribe. Sadly, it's also an uninformed diatribe. (Speaking for myself, I tend to find the uninformed diatribes to be the least compelling.)

... When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms?

Not sure why you'd ask this, as though prayer were just a psychological exercise.

That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to?

Catholics don't. Neither do Eastern Orthodox. The Bible prohibits the proskunesis of anything other than God. The Catholic Church continues to abide by this: Catholics do not engage in the worship (proskunesis) of icons. Catholics do, however, venerate icons by showing respect. Veneration is a very ancient Christian practice, and we have icons dating to the earliest years of Christianity. Moreover, the placement of the corpus, or body, on a crucifix was instituted to combat docetism, i.e. the view that Christ didn't really come and die in the flesh. The placement of the corpus is a reminder that it was a real man of flesh and blood who died on the cross. This seems like a good thing.

I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray.

No, they are not just artistic depictions. Here's where it would have been a good idea to educate yourself before posting a rant. Icons express theological, religious, spiritual truths, just as the words of a book convey such truths. You have to remember that throughout its history, there have been a great many Christians who couldn't read. There still are. Stained glass in a church is a way of teaching the faithful the truths of the faith. So too in the case of others sorts of icons (whether they are paintings or statues or what have you): They educate us in our faith by the use of symbols, just as the printed word educates us in our faith by the use of symbols (in a book, the symbols represent words). To pray while gazing at an icon is no different that to pray while reading the Bible. It is a kind of meditative prayer.

God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs?

Because Jesus WAS flesh and bones, because Jesus wasn't pure spirit but was a human being who lived, suffered, and died. Just like us: we are human beings, and we are called to worship with our minds, our spirits, our bodies, and all our senses. Catholic worship includes elements that engage all of these: Catholics adopt different postures because the body participates in worship; Catholics burn incense and candles, use lots of different colors, play music and sing, etc. It is the whole person who worships.

Jesus specifically told us not to.

Jesus expressly condemned veneration? Where did he do that?

This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

You'd be better off devoting the time you take to type your rants to reading about the history of the religion to which you profess to belong. Nothing that you have singled out for your scorn is new. In fact, it's all very, very ancient.

Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you advocate is not itself new. It emerged in the eighth century and was an import from Islam adopted by some Christians who were heavily influenced by Islamic teaching. It is not native to Christianity.