[cogs]

JoeT777, then who was jesus talking about when he said, 'i go to the father'?

[arcura]

JoeT777,
I'm glad you fixed that.
Also I note that God has the power to create this vast universe we live in with billions of galaxies and trillions of stars plus who knows how many planets.
So how come some can not fathom that He has the power to be born of a Human woman and to change bread and wine into His body and blood?
That is beyond me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

cogs,
According to the Bible the triune God is the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.
The Father's heavenly kingdom is in heaven so when Jesus said that he is going to the Father then to heaven is where he went.
The bible tells us that Jesus sits to the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
So that is basically where they rule from.
That is the way I understand it.
I suspect that JoeT777 understands it similarly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

joeT777, then who was jesus talking about when he said, 'i go to the father'?

To avoid an error on my part I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85


254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

Therefore when Christ said 'I go to the father' he was implying that the 2nd person of God would go to the first person of God.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

cogs,
According to the Bible the triune God is the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.
The Father's heavenly kingdom is in heaven so when Jesus said that he is going to the Father then to heaven is where he went.
The bible tells us that Jesus sits to the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
So that is basically where they rule from.
That is the way I understand it.
I suspect that JoeT777 understands it similarly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Its one and the same; except that your answer seems so much easier than the CCC

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777,
Thanks much, Joe.
You made it much clearer than did I.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
No matter how you try to twist it, JoeT777 answered your question.

And was the answer YES or NO? Did he say that God was conceived or not?

I also believe that Jesus Christ, my Lord, God the son, was conceived in Mary's womb overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe God was conceived in Mary?

Well over one billion people believe that correctly.

Really? You polled these one billion people, did you? Or are you just claiming to speak on their behalf?

Do you believe God's doctrine is rightly determined by majority vote?

[cogs]

I think I get your belief now: that mary could have mothered god, because jesus was god, putting aside that the father is god also. My thoughts are always on how the spiritual reacts with the physical. This is because we must interact with god on some level. The holy spirit must do something in us, for us to be transformed into doing his will. If I just believe in god, it soon becomes apparent that I'm not changing, and I start to sin. There has to be something spiritual interacting with the physical. And since jesus promised the holy spirit, which we cannot see, just as we cannot see god, then this spirit must be inside doing something for,to,with,or in us. I honestly believe it's just as the bible says, that jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and that includes the evil within us, through working his will by the spirit.

[JoeT777]

i think i get your belief now: that mary could have mothered god, because jesus was god, putting aside that the father is god also.

It’s not just “my” belief.

But, I think you came pretty close – I don’t know how or why you would “put aside the Father.” The idea isn’t that you’re putting Him aside; it’s that God is revealing himself in the Person of Christ. I’ve heard the three parts of the Trinity described as; God is the cause, the Son of God is the presence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yet one god.

my thoughts are always on how the spiritual reacts with the physical. this is because we must interact with god on some level. the holy spirit must do something in us, for us to be transformed into doing his will. if i just believe in god, it soon becomes apparent that i'm not changing, and i start to sin. there has to be something spiritual interacting with the physical. and since jesus promised the holy spirit, which we cannot see, just as we cannot see god, then this spirit must be inside doing something for,to,with,or in us. i honestly believe it's just as the bible says, that jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and that includes the evil within us, through working his will by the spirit.

I don’t know if you intended to be understood this way, but I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough. But that makes for an entirely different topic.

JoeT

[cogs]

It’s not just “my” belief.
But, I think you came pretty close – I don’t know how or why you would “put aside the Father.” The idea isn’t that you’re putting Him aside; it’s that God is revealing himself in the Person of Christ. I’ve heard the three parts of the Trinity described as; God is the cause, the Son of God is the presence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yet one god.

I'm not saying jesus wasn't god. Jesus said that he is the way to god, and I believe that he's intimately connected to god, the father. I really don't think we're ever going to separate one, (father, son, spirit), without the other, which makes sense, because they are of one will, and work it in heaven and this world. They are a dynamic person. But what I believe, is that god's holy spirit jesus promised to us, is what will change us. And the atonement of jesus is what will forgive us.

I don’t know if you intended to be understood this way, but I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough. But that makes for an entirely different topic.

JoeT

yes, that's another subject.

[JoeT777]

i'm not saying jesus wasn't god. jesus said that he is the way to god, and i believe that he's intimately connected to god, the father. i really don't think we're ever going to separate one, (father, son, spirit), without the other, which makes sense, because they are of one will, and work it in heaven and this world. they are a dynamic person. but what i believe, is that god's holy spirit jesus promised to us, is what will change us. and the atonement of jesus is what will forgive us.

I agree. The intent of my post wasn't to give you any impression other that that expressed here.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777
You said, "I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough."
I agree!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

JoeT777
You said, "I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough."
I agree!!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I see that you also avolid the question - Was God conceived? YES or NO?

BTW, you are right simply believing is not enough - scripture says that we must believe IN Him. Quite different.

[De Maria]

Fred,

I see that you also avolid the question - Was God conceived? YES or NO?

BTW, you are right simply believing is not enough - scripture says that we must believe IN Him. Quite different.

God was not created but God was conceived in Mary's womb.

Luke 1 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Now if you claim that Jesus is not God, then go ahead. But if Jesus is God, then God is conceived in Mary's womb.

Define: conceive
Fertilisation (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to produce a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceive

You seem to regard the word conceive as always synonymous with new Creation. But you are wrong. Conceive also means to fertilize in the womb. In a normal fertilization, we have two pre existing seeds, the man's and the woman's joining together and forming an organic being.

In Mary's womb, we have pre existing GOD (i.e. God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) joining with Mary's seed. God took flesh in Mary's womb and thus Jesus was conceived. Jesus, being Son of the Most High, is God from the instant of His Conception because the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is God from all eternity.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

God was not created but God was conceived in Mary's womb.

If God was conceived, then God had a beginning, which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.

God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.

[De Maria]

If God was conceived, then God had a beginning,

Wrong. We all know that God existed before Mary. Therefore, Jesus conception in the womb could not be the beginning of God.

which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.

You are trying to force that into Catholic doctrine. But obviously you don't know much about Catholic doctrine.

God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.

But Jesus was and Jesus is God. Therefore God was conceived in Mary's womb.

The only way you can logically believe that God was not conceived in Mary's womb is the Nestorian heresy which denies the Divinity of Christ:

Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
Mary: Mother of God

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

Tj3.
Yes, God the son was conceived in Mary's womb, but He was not created there.
God is eternal and infinite.
You denying Mar is the mother of God is saying that she conceived Just a man and not God the Son. Therefore according to you Jesus is not God.
With God all things are possible.
By the way as I have said many times I believe in and on the triune God.
Please no longer try to infer that I do not!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3.
Yes, God the son was conceived in Mary's womb, but He was not created there.

Then you do not understand what it means to conceive.

[Tj3]

But Jesus was and Jesus is God. Therefore God was conceived in Mary's womb.

Then you must hold to the Mormon view that God had a beginning

[arcura]

Tj3,
Yes I fully understand what conceived means.
Thank you.
Fred