[De Maria]

It's simply because of things that I've experienced in my life, things I've seen firsthand. Not miracles, but everyday things. Twice in my mothers life she was "legally" dead, before her actual death. Both times she witnessed something that further proved to me and her that God exists. It might not matter to anyone else, but it does for me, and has meaning for me. I can't explain it any clearer without writing an entire book about it, but rest assured that I have my reasons.

Its good you were paying attention. Many people see far more and don't believe in God.

Personally I find it a miracle that after 10 years of harassment in Catholic school, I still believe in God. If anything could have turned someone away from God, my 10 years of Catholic school should have done the trick.

They did manage to turn me away from church, and the constant bible study

I'm glad you mentioned the "constant bible study". Many claim that Catholic schools don't teach the Bible. Thanks for your honesty.

opened my eyes as well, but they couldn't turn me from God.

You think that Catholic Schools were trying to turn you from God by making you study the Bible (i.e. "constant bible study")?

They tried to "save my soul"

If you believed the Church or the Bible, you'd understand that it is one of our duties.

which I found amusing, because the only thing they did to save theirs was read the bible and go to church.

You mean, the Church which is always accused of teaching that one must work their way into heaven didn't teach you about good works? Or do you mean that they didn't practice what they preached?

Most of the parents of my friends were horrible people, wife abusers, drug abusers, child molesters, but they believed that because they are Catholic and go to church, God would forgive them their sins, what hypocrisy.

You went to Catholic School for ten years. Is that what the Church teaches? Does the Church teach that people should be wife abusers, drug abusers, and child molesters? Or were these people acting AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic Church?

I am the exact opposite of that, yes I sin, have sinned and will continue to sin, that is a human trait, and I am indeed human. But I try my hardest to do right, to live my life as a good human being. When I ask for forgiveness it's not because I did what I wanted and I'm trying to cover it up, when I make a mistake I am truly sorry, that's the difference.

That's wonderful! I hope for your sake that you are right.

So, why do I need the bible and church?

According to you, you don't.

We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do. And we believe that Jesus is God. You are a Theist, so you don't.

Now, for instance, you say you know when you are truly sorry. We believe that only God truly knows our heart. And therefore, we don't know if we are ever truly as sorry as we need to be. That is why Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive. Because if our contrition is imperfect, we will still be absolved of sin by obeying God's Word.

Personally, and I mean no disrespect, I see both as a crutch, as a way to reassure yourself, to make yourself believe you are on the right path.

And you know you are on the right track. That is good.

Who is right, the person who leads a good life, tries always to be kind and caring, help their fellow man, and try not to sin, or the person that goes to church, reads the bible and therefore thinks they are safe from the "wrath" of God, even though they purposefully sin.

Anyone who purposefully sins and does not repent is condemned since they have turned against God.

A person who reads and goes to church and then sins but REPENTS, is forgiven.

I don't believe in the "wrath" of God, but the Chritians do, which is why I mention it.

Then why do you care if you sin or not?

What about those that don't even believe in God? God gave us minds, and free will, as his children he wants us to use those gifts. He wants us to question, to find answers, and like any good parent, he loves us no matter what path we choose. That's what I believe with all my heart.

For your sake, I hope you are right. As for me, I have faith in the Bible readers who go to Church and love God so much that they do all they can to obey His Word. Therefore I follow their example.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

So, why do I need the bible and church?

We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do (*1). And we believe that Jesus is God. You are a Theist, so you don't (*2).

*1 : Where in the Bible does Jesus say literally that we need the Bible?
*1 : Please quote the precise location of that text in the Bible !

*2 : That line makes no sense ! Being a Theist does not say anything on belief in Jesus being God or not.
*2 : Theism only means belief in one God or more Gods.
*2 : Altenweg is a DEIST and that is why for her any claimed link between God and Jesus is irrelevant.

Note : I hope that by now you took enough Imodium to bring any of your future posts to readable length.

:>)

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[De Maria]

*1 : Where in the Bible does Jesus say literally that we need the Bible?

Literally? You'll have to talk to a Protestant for strict literalism. I'm Catholic and I follow the Catholic teaching:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2

As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.

*1 : Please quote the precise location of that text in the Bible !

There it is above.

*2 : That line makes no sense ! Being a Theist does not say anything on belief in Jesus being God or not.
*2 : Theism only means belief in one God or more Gods.
*2 : Altenweg is a DEIST and that is why for her any claimed link between God and Jesus is irrelevant.

I don't know what you are complaining about. Read the line again.

Note : I hope that by now you took enough Imodium to bring any of your future posts to readable length.

You can't handle the arguments no matter how long the message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do

Literally? You'll have to talk to a Protestant for strict literalism. I'm Catholic and I follow the Catholic teaching.

So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.
So your first statement was clearly incorrect. Jesus never said you do.

:>)

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[De Maria]

So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible ...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.
So your first statement was clearly incorrect. Jesus never said you do.

:>)

.

That is what is called building a straw man so you can knock it down. Read the entire message. My response is still there. It looks like this:


As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[talaniman]

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

[Wondergirl]

So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible ...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.

In Jesus' time, the "Bible" didn't exist. Jesus often quoted from the law and the prophets, what became the Old Testament.

[De Maria]

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible,

Correct.

the same old testament that spawned Islam,

That is false. Muslims despise the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.

and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus to teach what He taught and to pass down the Traditions.

Members of the Church were inspired to write the New Testament Scriptures by the Holy Spirit.

Since the Jesus are from Jesus, their Divine source is their claim to Divine origins. Jesus proved He is God by many miracles and by rising from the dead.

Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

But God can inspire fallible man to create infallible works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Alty]

Now, for instance, you say you know when you are truly sorry. We believe that only God truly knows our heart. And therefore, we don't know if we are ever truly as sorry as we need to be. That is why Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive. Because if our contrition is imperfect, we will still be absolved of sin by obeying God's Word.

Are you saying that you don't feel remorse when you do something wrong, when you sin? You really need someone else to tell you that you are really remorseful? That's where we're different, I know when I've done something wrong and I know when I'm sorry for it, I don't need anyone else telling me that I am sorry. God sees what is in my heart, I don't need to go to church and have a man tell me that God forgives me.

I'm glad you mentioned the "constant bible study". Many claim that Catholic schools don't teach the Bible. Thanks for your honesty.

I graduated from high school 20 years ago, in Canada, and yes, back then they still taught the bible. Are they now, in the US, I really don't know.

Then why do you care if you sin or not?

You're really asking that question? Why, because if you aren't afraid of God's wrath you should go right ahead and sin, it's okay then? Do you really need an answer to that? I do care if I sin, because I want to be the best person I can be. Every decent person I know feels the same way, no matter what they believe. Christians aren't the only "good" people on this earth.

For your sake, I hope you are right. As for me, I have faith in the Bible readers who go to Church and love God so much that they do all they can to obey His Word. Therefore I follow their example.

Obviously that's the path you've chosen, and I don't begrudge you that choice at all.

I don't need a book or church to believe in God, that's what makes us different, and obviously that difference bothers you a bit.

[Alty]

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

I agree Tal, 100%. :)

[Alty]

That is what is called building a straw man so you can knock it down. Read the entire message. My response is still there. It looks like this:


As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.

The actual quote is:

Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

you are the one saying he meant scripture and then further say that the bible contains every book of scripture, therefore they are referring to the bible.

Word for word the bible isn't mentioned, when you tell people what you think is meant, well that's not fact, that's your view on what was written. This is the problem that I have with religion, mans view on a man written book, twisted into his own words, however he views it, and then stated as fact.

[Credendovidis]

In Jesus' time, the "Bible" didn't exist. Jesus often quoted from the law and the prophets, what became the Old Testament.

That law never made it into the Bible. And Jesus never mentioned the Bible.
That is why de Maria is incorrect when he stated earlier that :

"We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do"

Jesus never mentioned any "Bible". It did not exist yet.

:>)

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[Credendovidis]

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.

Yes : that is the typical approach of "de Maria" !

:>)

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[talaniman]

who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity
That is false. Muslims despise the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.

Then what your saying is you do not know the true history of your own bible????
Shouldn't that inspire you to explore, and find the truth????

[Credendovidis]

... the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity...

Isn't that the other way around?

... the same old testament that spawned Christianity, and later Islam...

(by about 500+ years !)

:>)

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[De Maria]

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.

No.

The actual quote is: you are the one saying he meant scripture and then further say that the bible contains every book of scripture, therefore they are referring to the bible.

Correct.

Word for word the bible isn't mentioned,

Correct. The Bible did not exist yet.

when you tell people what you think is meant, well that's not fact, that's your view on what was written.

That is actually, the Catholic view on what was written.

This is the problem that I have with religion, mans view on a man written book, twisted into his own words, however he views it, and then stated as fact.

It is fact. Lets look at the verse logically.

The verse says man needs the Word of God, (i.e. every word from the mouth of God).
Scripture is the Word of God.
John 10 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The Bible contains the Word of God, (i.e. Scripture).

Therefore we need the Bible.

In fact, today, the term "Bible" is interchangeable with Scripture.

Define Bible:
The Bible is the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Glossary at Trinityparish.com

So if you want to make believe that I twisted the meaning of the verse, go ahead. I'll let reasonable people decide between you and I.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[talaniman]

Isn't that the other way around?

... the same old testament that spawned Christianity, and later Islam ...

(by about 500+ years !

:>)

.

I stand corrected, sometimes I type too fast, or is it juggling to many threads!:o

[talaniman]

So if you want to make believe that I twisted the meaning of the verse, go ahead. I'll let reasonable people decide between you and I.

Being a reasonable person, I question any one who says the are absolutely right, no matter the bible they read. No matter your belief, your still human, whether you are inspired, or not, you are still human. So no matter how differently we see things, or say things, we are still human, and that is the only absolute truth, and can be proved as fact. The rest is rhetoric, and belief.

If your belief, gets you thru the day, and comforts you during hard times, more power to you!

[fjsmith81]

I don't know, science isn't something I'm good at. You could explain till your where blue in the face, it's my worst subject. But the little I do know, well it sounds more realistic to me than God creating something from nothing in 6 days.

Alt, in the bible a day does not translate into literally a 24 hr time. A day can be a hundred years, a thousand years, or a million. A day is just to a tool to express a time.
I grew up Christian, and I remember a time when I was a little girl sitting in Sunday school, and a story was read about creating men from rocks. I think it went a rock was thrown in this direction and here is a nation, anyway I don't really remember, but I do remember is asking my Sunday school teacher how that was possible. He actually got quite angry with me. Even at ten I was arguing the validity of the Bible.
I don't think that the Bible is meant for anyone to take literally. It's simply a biblical time, Chicken Soup for the Soul kind of book. It's a collection of stories that are meant to inspire and sometimes put fear inside of you. It's not something that's really meant to be questioned. It is literally something that no one will ever know the answer to.

[Wondergirl]

That law never made it into the Bible.

The Ten Commandments in Exodus and Deuteronomy are not the law? Leviticus does not contain Jewish law? And yes, Jesus referred to the commandments and the Levitical laws many times.