[De Maria]

Ok... if god is real why can't he come out and say Hello , Iam God nice to meet you! :D and what about those people who die in 911 I don't see God save them... and what I meant why superman are if god is real he could show us in the public like the in the movie superman be like a hero. :D Hmm what about other religion gods? I still don't see any of them pops out in front of us.

As for the Christian God, He doesn't reveal Himself because He doesn't want to force us to believe in Him. He has given us free will and He doesn't violate it.

If He were to reveal Himself to us in all His glory, we would not be able to exercise our free will. And faith is not coerced.

Also here some opinion found on other people...

Hmm? Not your opinions? Or what?

(Heidi's Mummy)
I personally am a believer of the evolution theory for the creation of life.

Then you believe that inanimate, uniintelligent matter created organisms millions of times more complex than intelligent men can create today.

That is a lot of faith in inanimate, unintelligent matter.

Answer me this Christians, if God created Heaven and Earth and all that dwell, who the created God??

God is uncreated.

Science teaches us that everything which has a beginning is made by something else. Science also teaches us that the universe had a beginning.

Logically then, the universe was made by a pre existing being.

Science also tells us that the universe has order and design.
Since we are not aware of any creation with order and design which was not made by a creature with even a small bit of intelligence, then that means that the Pre existing being who made the universe had to be Intelligent.

My husband's father believes in God completely and if you argue the evolution argument with him he will say things like 'it is subterfuge, put in place by God to test our faith'

I guess you need to speak to your husband's father.

What? B*llocks if you ask me!

I didn't ask you did I?

I personally do not like religion because I feel that it is and has been the cause of a great may wars and tragedy's over the years.

The worst tragedies in history have been caused by atheistic regimes.

'The Crusades'

911


That bunch of psychos who were targeting soldiers' and Heath Ledger's funerals because they said that they were 'fag enablers' and God was against that.

etc etc,

Atheistic regiimes led by Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Kmer rouge and on and on. They killed more people in one century than all religious wars put together THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Anyway as you said, science has proved it we evolved we were not put here by some divine being.

Science has provided evidence that we evolved. That evidence has provided evidence that we were created by a Divine Intelligence.

If you saw a message in the dirt, like, "bring me donuts". Would you assume that it was created by the wind and rain or that it was created by a human being.

The simplest organisms of life carry in their dna and in their genes, messages millions of times more complicated than that message on the ground. Yet you assume that unintelligent inanimate matter wrote those messages?

That is speculating against the evidence. It is on the order of a fairy tale.

Kez x


(Korey:))
Where do cavemen fall in the christain view of the creation of life because scientists have proven this?

First men.

and we have found their skeletons in fact it has been proven that we used to have tails to because over a long long long period our tails got shorter

Has that been proven? Provide the evidence.

and is what is now our tail bones.I think if darwin would have known about DNA he would have gone a lot further in his study of evolution .he proved and showed that... well il give you an example so its easier to understand:
OK so say there was mabey a type of bird lets say a finch .so anyway say there was a flock of these birds that had small beaks on an island and one day a tornado hit the island and some of the birds got blown over to another island where the only thing to eat were very large seeds that needed to be cracked to eat.so lets say there was mabey one bird born with a slightly biger beek then the rest then it mated with another bird and their offspring all had slightly biger beaks and all the birds who didn't all died and the offspring would mate and so on and a long time after that we end up with a different type of bird so how did god make this finch... was it his otomatic creation because he """created""" the first finch I mean those finches evolved from something before them and so on and so forth... or backwards I don't know... but anyway the point is that we all evolved from one specific species..

What do you mean, "from one specific species"? They are all finches. I believe in macro evolution, but this is not an example of macro evolution. It is an example of micro evolution. This doesn't explain the great changes from one species to another within one genus.

.NOT adam and eve species I mean something like an ameba or something I don't know because it wouldn't make a lot of sense that adam and eve evolved into cavemen

You mean that Adam and Eve devolved. We don't believe that either, but there is evidence of animals which have devolved. Many species of birds have useless wings.

and then back into humans... so if this is said then how can you still say that "god" made the finch and made everything... and please don't say something like... well I know he is my savior and all that stuff.. and then say a scripture or tell me I'm going to hell and I should except jesus and go to church and I'm not correct and I'm illiterate because I didn't feel like using spell chack or spelling things right or something because until I as in ME see actual evidence that what I just explained isn't true then mabey... MABEY ill execpt "god".. sorry I ran out of room.

If I understood the question in that rambling, you asked, "how can you say that God made the finch and everything?"

The intelligence of the design. There is no way that an unintelligent animal can by accident develop into more and more sophisticated creatures.

(crazy eyes)
first of all, scientists have not and cannot prove that evolution is responsible for all life on earth. While some of the archaeological finds may have been authentic, others were hoaxes. Evolutionists themselves have admitted that time is the savior of the theory of evolution. They can put their feet up and say time is responsible for evolution.
Supposedly, we all evolved from a single celled organism that over 'time' had grown in complexity
to produce complex living organisms. Here's the problem: single cell organisms do not 'evolve' or mutate into complex lifeforms.they can no more do so than a rock give birth to a blue whale, in other words its just not possible. Any biologist would tell you that. Also, the earth is supposedly billions of years old and therefore over this adequate amount of time all life was said to have evolved from a single cell.
here's another problem, scientists have been measuring the strength of the earths magnetic field and have found that its magnetic field strength is weakening exponentially every 400yrs. Using some mathematics they calculated the earths magnetic field strength(m.f.s) back many thousands of yrs and found that the m.f.s would have been too strong to support ANY form of life.
the threshold for life to have survived would be around 8000 - 9000 yrs ago. Definitely not the billions of yrs as claimed.
here's more proof: in physics, the laws of thermodynamics state that the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, and that the universe is in simple terms, devolving.
in other words the universe would have had to start from
a highly organized, structured form(creationism) and then become less and less organized and more chaotic(these laws have been proven scientifically BTW). It cannot be the other way around and become more ordered/structured.
and yes, while people may argue that technology is advancing, I'm referring to the universe, and ultimately, all life.
science and the bible don't contradict each other, in fact they
go hand in hand together, but people don't want to look at the
bible and creationism that way which is unfortunate.
there are so many more other ways to prove scientifically that evolution just simply cannot work.

I hope this covers all the angles for you and anyone else reading this.

That last part seemed to agree with me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

De Maria commenting to Sunnywootxp :

As for the Christian God, He doesn't reveal Himself because He doesn't want to force us to believe in Him. He has given us free will and He doesn't violate it.

If He were to reveal Himself to us in all His glory, we would not be able to exercise our free will. And faith is not coerced.

How do you know that? Because it is written in that human-made book called the Bible?
Or do you BELIEVE that? Where does the Bible speak of Free Will ?
Please call Chapter and line !

How handy if it was stated in the Bible, as that would exclude you of any need to support your wild religious claims.
HOWEVER : that also includes that you can NEVER claim that what you believe is "true", logical, or factual.

All you can do is BELIEVE THAT!! And from me you may believe that ! Didn't I state that all the time?

:>)

.

[De Maria]

De Maria commenting to Sunnywootxp :

How do you know that? Because it is written in that human-made book called the Bible?
Or do you BELIEVE that? Where does the Bible speak of Free Will ?
Please call Chapter and line !

The Bible doesn't use the words free will. But it is clear that God has given us a choice:

Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

How handy if it was stated in the Bible, as that would exclude you of any need to support your wild religious claims.
HOWEVER : that also includes that you can NEVER claim that what you believe is "true", logical, or factual.

All you can do is BELIEVE THAT!! And from me you may believe that ! Didn't I state that all the time?

?? Are you on drugs?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

The Bible doesn't use the words free will.

Than why do you claim that free will exists? Based on what?

But it is clear that God has given us a choice.

Not clear at all. That are just words. Empty human words. Not OSE.

Are you on drugs?

I never used any drugs, nor do I drink alcohol.

I note that you are *just one of "them"* : one of those who - if you do not accept their highly questionable personal religious views - start becoming rude and/or nasty...

[De Maria]

Than why do you claim that free will exists? Based on what?

Based on the fact that He gives us a choice whether to believe in Him or not.

Not clear at all. That are just words. Empty human words. Not OSE.

Human words are good enough for me.

I never used any drugs, nor do I drink alcohol.

Just asking. Cause your words became incoherent.

I note that you are *just one of "them"* : one of those who - if you do not accept their highly questionable personal religious views - start becoming rude and/or nasty...

Lol!! That's rich. Coming from probably the most insulting person on this forum, that is really funny.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

Hitler and Stalin were both Catholics. In fact both of them were on their way to becoming priests before they took leadership. If you want to blame anything blame their religious up bringing. This is just another example of the religious fanatics twisting the facts to make their point. It doesn't matter if they lie or not as long as you believe the word of god as it comes from their mouth.

Also Karl Marx never killed anyone he was an idea man and given how he cared for the poor I don't think he would have wanted anyone to be killed.

Read a book other than the bible for once you might learn something. I suggest you start with "mein kampf" by Adolf Hitler. It is still available to read in fact although the Catholic church has banned many books "mein Kampf" is not banned. Read it and you will find out how deeply religious Hitler was and how he saw the killing of the Jews as a continuation of what the Catholic church had been doing for years. The Catholic church saw it as a good thing as well since they never ex-communicated him.

[De Maria]

Hitler and Stalin were both Catholics. In fact both of them were on their way to becoming priests before they took leadership.

Sad to say, they were raised in Catholic families. However, they were both atheists and ruled over atheistic regimes.

If you want to blame anything blame their religious up bringing.

They obviously rejected the religion of their upbringing.

This is just another example of the religious fanatics twisting the facts to make their point. It doesn't matter if they lie or not as long as you believe the word of god as it comes from their mouth.

Perhaps you are twisting the facts. I'm not. I know for a fact that people can be raised Catholic and grow up to reject what they were taught to believe. I did it and there are several people on this forum who have done it.

Also Karl Marx never killed anyone he was an idea man and given how he cared for the poor I don't think he would have wanted anyone to be killed.

My mistake.

Read a book other than the bible for once you might learn something.

I've read many books in my life.

I suggest you start with "mein kampf" by Adolf Hitler.

I read that when I was 13.

It is still available to read in fact although the Catholic church has banned many books "mein Kampf" is not banned. Read it and you will find out how deeply religious Hitler was and how he saw the killing of the Jews as a continuation of what the Catholic church had been doing for years. The Catholic church saw it as a good thing as well since they never ex-communicated him.

There was no need. He ex communicated himself.

Obviously, you read quite a bit. You just need to distinguish between propaganda and truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Sunnywootxp]

Maria I got a great question for you, why do you choose to believe in god or jesus(are they both the same?)? There are many other religion in the world. And I found an interesting fact christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E, I remember before you said god made this world but there are other religion that have there own god... don't tell all the gods are originally brothers and sisters but they got into a fight at some point so they all split out and become their own god :D (iam very creative but maybe its true). And "Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. This ancient religion was born when the Aryan peoples migrated to Northern India and first put their religious tradition into writing. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. (before common era) and have greatly influenced Indian culture ever since." (That's pretty long isn't it 1,500 B.C.E) In my opinion from what I see most people what their family believes in their children believe the same. Or you have been converted by some priests or people what made you believe in god or jesus. Or just out of the blue I just believe in them :D .

[Alty]

As stated by DeMaria

Human words are good enough for me.

Obviously not, we're human, our words aren't good enough for you.

Lol!! That's rich. Coming from probably the most insulting person on this forum, that is really funny.

If you're rude then Cred will be rude back, as will most others, yourself included. Cred and I used to butt heads all the time, we couldn't have a rational discussion if our lives depended on it.

One day I looked at what I had written to him and realized that I was largely to blame for that, if you poke someone enough then they poke back. I apologized, asked if we could let bygones be bygones and start fresh, and he agreed, just like that. Why, because he's a good person. No, he doesn't believe in God, but he's still a good person, why isn't that enough? Are only people who believe in God, good? Not in my experience. I consider Cred a friend. I don't always agree with him, but I am respectful of his beliefs, as he is of mine.

Bottom line, we all defend what we believe, and we defend it with passion which sometimes leads to rudeness and name calling. We are after all human, and we make mistakes. Before long, if we continue to read everything with anger, we are not longer discussing, but fighting. What has fighting ever accomplished? I'll tell you what, a closed thread, that's what, and more anger.

DeMaria, believe in the Catholic Church, it is your right. Spread the "word of God" to people that want to hear it, that is your mission as a Catholic. Go to church and listen, that is the path you have chosen. But don't expect others to follow suit just because you "say" that you are right, because you don't have proof that you are, no matter how you twist things around, you don't have proof.

God Bless.

[drewthompson]

Just follow your heart and decide for yourself what is best for you and those you love regardless of what other people are doing and expecting from you.

[De Maria]

Maria I got a great question for you, why do you choose to believe in god or jesus(are they both the same?)?

Yes. We believe in the Trinity. Three Divine Persons in One God. Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

There are many other religion in the world.

True.

And I found an interesting fact christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E,

Correct.

I remember before you said god made this world but there are other religion that have there own god... don't tell all the gods are originally brothers and sisters but they got into a fight at some point so they all split out and become their own god :D (iam very creative but maybe its true).

But probably not. I'll go by the evidence for Jesus Christ rather than someone's imagination no matter how good it might be.

And "Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. This ancient religion was born when the Aryan peoples migrated to Northern India and first put their religious tradition into writing. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. (before common era) and have greatly influenced Indian culture ever since." (That's pretty long isn't it 1,500 B.C.E) In my opinion from what I see most people what their family believes in their children believe the same. Or you have been converted by some priests or people what made you believe in god or jesus. Or just out of the blue I just believe in them :D .

I have compared the beliefs of the Hindu to the beliefs of Christianity. I don't find the beliefs of the Hindu persuasive.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

Sad to say, they were raised in Catholic families. However, they were both atheists and ruled over atheistic regimes.


They obviously rejected the religion of their upbringing.

Perhaps you are twisting the facts. I'm not. I know for a fact that people can be raised Catholic and grow up to reject what they were taught to believe. I did it and there are several people on this forum who have done it.

There was no need. He ex communicated himself.

Obviously, you read quite a bit. You just need to distinguish between propaganda and truth.

So when Hitler wrote "I am a Catholic and I always will be." We are just suppose to assume he was an atheist with no facts because no Catholic would do that. Find me one, one source From Hitler or from someone close to him where he said he was an atheist. You won't because he was Catholic and the church fully understood what he was doing and it wasn't till he lost that they even attempted to disown him. Even if he was an atheist he didn't kill people because of atheistism he killed people cause he was crazy probably a product of his upbringing.

[De Maria]

Obviously not, we're human, our words aren't good enough for you.

There are many human beings with conflicting opinions. I studied the various religions and I believe the opinions of the Christians. Specifically the Catholics.

If you're rude then Cred will be rude back, as will most others, yourself included. Cred and I used to butt heads all the time, we couldn't have a rational discussion if our lives depended on it.

Creds a rude individual. He thinks by being rude he can force people to believe as he does or to leave this site. Therefore if we give in to his rudeness, he has won.

One day I looked at what I had written to him and realized that I was largely to blame for that, if you poke someone enough then they poke back. I apologized, asked if we could let bygones be bygones and start fresh, and he agreed, just like that. Why, because he's a good person. No, he doesn't believe in God, but he's still a good person, why isn't that enough? Are only people who believe in God, good? Not in my experience. I consider Cred a friend. I don't always agree with him, but I am respectful of his beliefs, as he is of mine.

I'm glad the both of you are friends.

Bottom line, we all defend what we believe, and we defend it with passion which sometimes leads to rudeness and name calling. We are after all human, and we make mistakes. Before long, if we continue to read everything with anger, we are not longer discussing, but fighting. What has fighting ever accomplished? I'll tell you what, a closed thread, that's what, and more anger.

Do me a favor. The next time that I insult Cred FIRST, let me know. Because all I remember is my rebutting his insults.

DeMaria, believe in the Catholic Church, it is your right.

Thanks. I'm glad you realize that.

Spread the "word of God" to people that want to hear it, that is your mission as a Catholic. Go to church and listen, that is the path you have chosen. But don't expect others to follow suit just because you "say" that you are right, because you don't have proof that you are, no matter how you twist things around, you don't have proof.

Well, I don't think I twist anything around. And this advice of yours applies to you as well. Just because you don't believe in the Bible or in going to Church don't expect others to believe as you do.

God Bless.

God bless you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

So when Hitler wrote "I am a Catholic and I always will be." We are just suppose to assume he was an atheist with no facts because no Catholic would do that.

In my youth, I was a Hitler fanatic. I didn't just read Mein Kampf, I read everything I could find about Hitler.

Oh, I also happened to be an anti-Catholic atheist. One of the things that drew me to Hitler is that he wanted to be rid of religion in every form. Before the rewriting of history, ATHEISTS embraced Hitler. At least the ones I knew. And everyone understood that Hitler was a master of propaganda. What you have fallen for is one of Hitler's lies.

But actions speak louder than words:

If Hitler believed in the Catholic Church, why did he establish NAZISM as the state religion?

Why did he replace the Bible with Mein Kampf as the book which should be studied in school?

Why did he persecute people of all religions, including Priests and Nuns?

Find me one, one source From Hitler or from someone close to him where he said he was an atheist. You won't because he was Catholic and the church fully understood what he was doing and it wasn't till he lost that they even attempted to disown him.

Hitler was too shrewd for that. He kept stringing religious people along with grandiose religious terms in his speeches. But the first chance he got, he disbanded religious groups and began systematically destroying first Jews and then Catholics.

Even if he was an atheist he didn't kill people because of atheistism he killed people cause he was crazy probably a product of his upbringing.

Yes, he did. He killed people because he was atheist and he wanted to impose his beliefs on his people.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

I'm an atheist and I think Hitler was an awful person(I always have) and anyone who thinks he was any different is an awful person as well. Obviously if you liked Hitler you are either warped or had a warped sense of what he did and why. If you are warped why would any of us listen to the crazy things you say. You apparently lack judgement and have gone from one awful thing to another. I think you have fallen for one of the Catholic religions awful lies and I think it's very apparent that I have a much better judgement than you do and since you only have your judgement as evidence perhaps you should use mine.

I still would like to see if you have any sources for this crazy idea you have. I think he got his ideas from Martin Luther who Hitler has been known to study his work and below is an example of the work of Martin Luther.

Luther advocated an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews either by religious conversion or by expulsion:

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.. . Such money should now be used in... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]... "
"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

[De Maria]

I'm an atheist and I think Hitler was an awful person(I always have) and anyone who thinks he was any different is an awful person as well.

I agree.

Obviously if you liked Hitler you are either warped or had a warped sense of what he did and why.

That was a long time ago. And I'm a totally different person today. But I guess you're frustrated since I can refute all your arguments. So, now your going to start insulting me.

But this is America. Our forefathers died for my right to disagree with you. Get used to it.

If you are warped

I don't think I'm warped. But I think you are. Does that make you happy? Is that the type of discussion you would rather have? Where is that peace which you were telling me about?

Oh no, I know what you want. A discussion where you can insult the Christian and the Christian leaves or just permits you to walk all over him.

That ain't going to happen Michael. Haven't you learned by now?

So, if you want me to respect you, you'd better respect me as well.

why would any of us listen to the crazy things you say.

For one, I don't think what I have to say is crazy. And you have a choice. You can simply block my messages if you don't want to hear them. I believe at least one other person on this forum has done so.

You apparently lack judgement

My judgement is pretty good.

and have gone from one awful thing to another.

I've gone from atheism to Love Incarnate.

I think you have fallen for one of the Catholic religions awful lies

Prove it. Otherwise, your welcome to your opinion, but its wrong.

and I think it's very apparent that I have a much better judgement than you do

I'll let others decide between you and I.

and since you only have your judgement as evidence perhaps you should use mine.

Lol!! Here, since I think your judgement is poor, you should use mine. Lol!!

I think you're serious too!! Rofl!!

I still would like to see if you have any sources for this crazy idea you have.

The crazy idea that Hitler was a liar? All you have to do is read history.

I think he got his ideas from Martin Luther who Hitler has been known to study his work and below is an example of the work of Martin Luther.

Maybe you could satisfy your fascination with Hitler by starting another thread about that subject.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Alty]

What was the original post, I've forgotten, oh, yeah questions about faith.

Well, the OP hasn't been back since she posted her question, can't say that I blame her, we've strayed so far off topic that I'm surprised we haven't discussed abortion and God's views on that.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but having said that, perhaps we should get back on topic, not that it matters seeing as the OP obviously isn't coming back.

I'm actually surprised that this thread hasn't been closed yet.

[De Maria]

What was the original post, I've forgotten, oh, yeah questions about faith.

Well, the OP hasn't been back since she posted her question, can't say that I blame her, we've strayed so far off topic that I'm surprised we haven't discussed abortion and God's views on that.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but having said that, perhaps we should get back on topic, not that it matters seeing as the OP obviously isn't coming back.

I'm actually surprised that this thread hasn't been closed yet.

Me too. I'm ready to get back on topic as well.

[fireandice2007]

I personally do not believe someone will go to hell for what they believe in. I grew up in a Mormon family, in the Mormon capitol of the world - Salt Lake City. When I turned sixteen, I decided I wanted to learn about other religions and make sure that I was following what felt right to me. I studied many religions, their beliefs, how they interpreted the scripture, what they taught, and how they treated people in general. Almost all churches, both christian and non christian state that they are the only "true" church and that unless everyone believes what they teach, there is no salvation.

My path eventually led me to Wicca - a pagan religion. I feel that this is right for me. I have practiced Wicca for almost seven years now, and have had no doubts or crisis of faith. (not saying doubts or crisis of faith is a bad thing, everyone has them) I have been happier and more content with the way my life has been both the good and bad. Am I saying that the pagan religions are the true religions and everyone else, including all christians, are going to hell? No I am not. I believe god (or gods if you will) gave us the freedom to choose because there is no right or wrong answer. We will be judged by our actions, how we live and treat others, not because we went and sat in a building on Sunday. Personally I feel closer to the gods when I am in nature than when I am in a busy crowded building with others who use their faith as a shield.

[Credendovidis]

My path eventually led me to Wicca - a pagan religion. I feel that this is right for me.

That's all there is to it ! If you feel good with that belief, why not? It is just as "good" and "valid" as any other religious belief ! Just don't start arguing with frustrated religious mono-theistic fundamentalists.
That is nothing but wasting time...

:)