[arcura]

De Maria,
When you said of Mary, "She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb."
You summed it up well and correctly.
According to the bible, that is exactly what took place.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV

Try to focus; this verse says that the child born (birthed) and was named by the angel. How does this verse contradict what Catholics believe?

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

[Galveston1]

This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

[Tj3]

Jesus is not divided. Jesus is man and God. There is not one Jesus who is man and another who is God.

That is right. And just as true is the fact that Jesus was not fully man before being conceived in the flesh.

Sure. Mary conceived God the Son in her womb. But Mary did not conceive Eternal God in her womb.

Did she? Then what you are saying is in effect that Jesus was not eternally pre-existent.

Tj3,
Perhaps you should star reading the bible fir what is says. It does tell us clearly that Mary us the mother of Jesus Christ the God/man not what you say.

Fred,

I note that you could not answer the question - did Mary conceive God - yes or no?

BTW, I believe what the Bible says, not your unvalidated private interpretation.

Try to focus; this verse says that the child born (birthed) and was named by the angel. How does this verse contradict what Catholics believe?

Heh hah - you brought up the fact that the word conceived was associated in the Bible with Jesus, and I quoted the verse. But now I note that you avoid the word conceived, and change it to "birthed".

I will take that to mean that you do not want to answer the question as to whether Mary conceived God.

I understand why you don't - really, I do!

This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

There will never be a meeting of the minds so long as one side insists that the other side must first accept the private interpretation of the men who lead their denomination.

[JoeT777]

heh hah - you brought up the fact that the word conceived was associated in the Bible with Jesus, and I quoted the verse. But now I note that you avoid the word conceived, and change it to "birthed".

I will take that to mean that you do not want to answer the question as to whether Mary conceived God.

I understand why you don't - really, I do!

I did ansewer your question (some time ago) as follows: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. " You still haven't shown how "conceived" in this verse contradicts Catholic belief. Try to do it without chopping Christ up into pieces.

Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

[JoeT777]

This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

I'm sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can't lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority. The RCC holds that all Scripture should be in harmony with the Tradition of the Apostles' teachings and the Magisterium of the Church. We see that among other things, Christ prays for us to have one faith, a holy faith, a catholic faith, as taught by the Apostles. John 17: 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. St. Augustine says it best:

But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. FIFTEEN BOOKS OF AURELIUS AUGUSTINUS BISHOP OF HIPPO, ON THE TRINITY

Furthermore, as far as scripture themselves


But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. St. Augustin, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397. Chp 5

JoeT

[Tj3]

I did ansewer your question (some time ago) as follows: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. " You still haven't shown how "conceived" in this verse contradicts Catholic belief. Try to do it without chopping Christ up into pieces.

You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?

BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.

Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.

[Tj3]

I’m sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can’t lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority.

Since that "book" as you call it, is the written word of God, I take that word with the authority of God. There is no denomination, or church, or human who carries authority equal to that of God's. There is no authority of any denomination, or church, or human which I would require before I would believe God's word or accept God's authority.

[JoeT777]

You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?

BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.

God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.

Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN, we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Thus we hold Mary was Ever Virgin and Mother of Mercy


JoeT

[De Maria]

Since that "book" as you call it, is the written word of God, I take that word with the authority of God. There is no denomination, or church, or human who carries authority equal to that of God's. there is no authority of any denomination, or church, or human which I would require before i would believe God's word or accept God's authority.

If you believed this "book", you would believe every verse. And this "book" tells you that the Church is your authority:

Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

That we should obey men of the Church:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

That the Church will even teach the powers in the heavenly places:

Ephesians 3 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

So in disregarding the Church, you disregard the Scriptures which tell you not to disregard the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.

I see that you are still avoiding the question.

Was God conceived in Mary?

We must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary's Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary's womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?

[Tj3]

If you believed this "book", you would believe every verse. And this "book" tells you that the Church is your authority.

That is a different thread, De maria, and we have already discussed that to death. You believe that "The Church" is a denomination started in 325AD, and I go by what scripture says about The Church.

[JoeT777]

Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:

But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. 1 Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59

We hold that;

Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59


And which is why we say:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.



JoeT

[JoeT777]

Originally Posted by JoeT777
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.

I see that you are still avoiding the question.
Was God conceived in Mary?

Words mean things, read what was written.

we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?

There is no error here.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ, is held to be Queen of the Universe

He he he.

I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.

Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.

Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?

[Tj3]

Words mean things, read what was written.

They do and I did.

Now please answer my question.

Was God conceived in Mary? Yes or No, please, no more copy and paste answers.

[JoeT777]

he he he.

I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.

Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.

Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?

Mockery is your best argument?


JoeT

[Tj3]

Mockery is your best argument?

Joe,

No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.

Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.

[JoeT777]

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:

But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59

We hold that;

Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59


And which is why we say:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.



JoeT

Joe,

No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.

Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.

Validation was given with Scriptural references.

[Tj3]

Validation was given with Scriptural references.

Not a single one validates Mary or indeed anyone else as "queen of the universe", nor even suggests that any such position exists. It is all someone's private opinion. Even within the copied and pasted paragraph, there are addition claims which are unvalidated upon which this unvalidated conclusion is based.

Read what you copied and pasted.

But again, this seems to be a way of driving the discussion off topic and avoiding the question which you have circled around but avoided:

Was God conceived in Mary?