[martina59]

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to be asking this, but I work in a church, and our assistant Pastor is so "socially clueless" it's frustrating me to no end. He says & does what I consider some of the dumest, insensitve, things that I just feel so guilty for feeling so frustrated over.
-He forgets to give me phone messages
- He absolutely will not admit he may be wrong over things, and when he IS wrong, he won't apologize
- He hasn't got a servants heart whatsoever, which in my mind, is like a teacher who doesn't like kids... I would think a Pastor would want to serve
- He won't help with any problem I may have in the office if he doesn't know (photocopier jam), instead of maybe at least trying to help me fix the problem
- It takes him MOST of the week, full days to prepare a 20 min. sermon

I could go on and on, & I realize I'm sounding like I'm keeping record of wrongs, and I don't mean to, I just feel so frustrated (& guilty for feeling so frustrated), and don't know how to bring this stuff up to him. It's comon sense, and he doesn't seem to have any.

Got any advise for me??

[N0help4u]

Sounds like if you were to bring it up he would just take it as you being argumentive and criticizing him. Some people are just the type that take things personal and get defensive.Sounds like if he is driving you that crazy maybe you should find another church. I have a feeling that if you bring it up to him it is just going to end up causing tension and misgivings to the point you end up finding another church anyway.Does any of the other Church members seem to have a problem with him too?

[maje3]

Sounds to me like God is developing your character. Have you kindly brought some of these things to the asst. pastors attention? Also, if you get into the spirit and don't judge him ( dumb, insensitive ) you won't be frustrated. God will deal with him. You just don't be weary in well doing an in due time you will receive your blessing.

[cogs]

Sounds like typical business problems... cause it's a business. Also, sounds like someone doesn't have god teaching them, cause they're not teachable. And then he's trying to teach others. This is illogical, not only on his part, but on the church's part, because church is about the people spiritually advancing, not organizing a business.

[Fr_Chuck]

Many pastors in larger churches are "managers" And you have to look at it like a company, what is your job ? Does the Manager come out and try and make a copy machine work at a large company, nope, he expects the officer workers to do it, or to have someone called.

And I will tell you about those 20 min sermons Pastors will do it one of two ways normally, some will just open a bible and let God lead.
Or they will research 100's of bible verses and hours of research into the research of the sermon.

And of course there are a 1000 other things pastors are expected to do

[martina59]

Many pastors in larger churches are "managers" And you have to look at it like a company, what is your job ? Does the Manager come out and try and make a copy machine work at a large company, nope, he expects the officer workers to do it, or to have someone called.

And I will tell you about those 20 min sermons Pastors will do it one of two ways normally, some will just open a bible and let God lead.
or they will research 100's of bible verses and hours of reasearch into the research of the sermon.

and of course there are a 1000 other things pastors are expected to do

I realize there are other things the pastor does. I'm the secretary. I would really hope he'd look at himself as a person first, pastor second, and manager 3rd. To "expect" someone else to help with something as "minimal" as a photocopy jam, to me says "I'm wayyyy too important to be bothered with that". Rather, I would have hoped he'd be a compassionate person first, and at least try and help me, instead of just "leave it up to me"
The issue isn't the photocopier, it's the attitude of not trying to be a team player, and help out instead of waiting to be asked for his help. I'm very frustrated with his "lack of serving". I believe he'd make an excellent teacher, but not so much of a Pastor. He also does not take to having a female correct him, no matter how I tip toe around it, and try as hard as I can to be compassionate, nice, etc. I really dislike any kind of confrontation, and this feels like I'm being put in a corner.

[Tj3]

Many pastors in larger churches are "managers" And you have to look at it like a company, what is your job ? Does the Manager come out and try and make a copy machine work at a large company, nope, he expects the officer workers to do it, or to have someone called.

Actually, I have worked in many companies, both small and large, and where I have worked, by and large the managers (myself included) have never avoided getting their hands dirty if they could help, even if it meant getting a copy machine working by clearing a jam. I have done so myself.

That is in the secular workworld - certainly I would expect a pastor to have more of a servants heart than managers in the secular world.

[N0help4u]

I think she was using that as just one of many examples, but really I am sure the pastor would not be too happy if she called someone to fix the printer every time she called without the Pastors okaying it which he probably doesn't even want to bother with.

[talaniman]

Forget you work in a church, and see it as a job, and instead of playing to his insecurity, do your job despite him, and take pride in doing it well.

You can't change him, but you can adjust your attitude, and do things the way you feel is right, and don't ask for his help, nor expect it.

The thing about bosses, is as a worker, you make them look good, or really bad. Since you know how he is, work around him, not through him. He has no right to mistreat you though, So when he is out of bounds, you simply tell him, and do your work.

I can appreciate the frustration, and can imagine he may be frustrated also, and needs you more, than you need him.

[maje3]

Don't worry Martina. I was the church secretary at my church for three years and I know how you feel. I am a person that is easily frustrated also and my pastor was the type that thought every one should serve him because he was the pastor. You know what your job duties are, best bet is like talaniman said. Just do what you got to do and do it unto the Lord. You can't change anyone. Like I said earlier, God will deal with him. You will be blessed for doing God's work.

[cozyk]

Sounds like you have yourself a total jerk in pastors clothing! Tell him to get off his high horse and be a team player.

[martina59]

Thanks. I'm trying to see it as God building my character. I'm trying so hard to get over the terribly strong frustrated feelings I'm having over so many things he does. I do believe he's got some difficult social immaturities, and I've never dealt with anyone quite like that before, so I'm trying to learn how to handle it. I am also trying very hard to stop being so sensitive, and getting hurt so easily. (Don't quite know yet how to do that), but thanks so much for the advise and help. (And understanding)

[maje3]

And remember, the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory. Also, ask the Holy Spirit to help you. Most times we are so frustrated because we try to do everything on our own. But the Holy Spirit is where our power comes from.

[cogs]

I agree, that you can really learn something here. I believe it's
God's will to change your heart and mind, and anyway that can happen,
We should be happy that we're given the opportunity to change for god.
What is this pastor learning internally? Nothing. But you have a chance
To really do the work of a christian, by changing for god. If you look
At it the world's way, you're just being chumped by someone. Please don't
Take that attitude, cause it's not spiritual. God is spirit, even in
Menial tasks. David, for instance, was a sheepherder, and gained skill
Working at protecting them, which in turn led to his skill as a leader
Of god's nation on earth.

[plonak]

I used to get my feelings hurt when my boss would snap at me.. I would go and sulk in my office and whine to myself and pity myself..

But then just one day I realized that sulking did me no good.. it didn't help the situation and it just made me feel worse..

So now when she snaps at me (which is not often) I just remind myself how grateful I am of my job and realize how blessed I am.. and I understand that she gets busy and is stressed.

It's a maturity thing, (Yes, adults can be immature about things)

I believe that we can learn something new everyday, and if we have a humbling attitude, we can grow so much from the experience

[Teresa51]

It's funny, but I have heard it said on more than 1 occasion, that working for Christians (or in a "Christian" business) can be more difficult than working for the non-believer. Don't misunderstand me, I am a believer through and through, but I know that sometimes Christians do not live their lives in love for others.

The truth is, we are all flawed, and we all have some area of our lives that we have not perfected yet (which is translated to mean, areas of our lives that we have put "off limits" to God), and we all have to deal with others who have also put "off limits to God" in some areas of their lives. God is interested in every single part of your life, and wants to be in the middle of it.

As far as the associate pastor, there is an expression that was said to me one day when I was moaning and groaning about my boss. The expression was, "He just needs Jesus REALLY REALLY bad!" I laughed so hard at that because it was a compassionate statement in my view and made me see this boss as Jesus sees him... in need of Him. So many, many times after that, I would say to myself, "He just needs Jesus really really bad!" And this was a boss who liked others to believe he was a believer (although I never saw anything that led me to believe that!)

I eventually quit that job after years of mistreatment and also after years of praying for this man and also for myself. The stress was taking a physical and emotional toll on me---I had endured for as long as I could. To be quite frank with you, I believe to this day that God was actually using this situation to get me to move on (I can be hard-headed), because it was not too long after that that I was moving in a new direction---one more peaceful, fulfilling, and producing more in the areas that God has 'wired' me for.

Have you considered leaving the job? There is no shame in it unless of course, you know for a fact that God has told you NOT to go.

[cogs]

...I know that sometimes Christians do not live their lives in love for others.
The truth is, we are all flawed, and we all have some area of our lives that we have not perfected yet (which is translated to mean, areas of our lives that we have put "off limits" to God), and we all have to deal with others who have also put "off limits to God" in some areas of their lives. God is interested in every single part of your life, and wants to be in the middle of it.
...And this was a boss who liked others to believe he was a believer (although I never saw anything that led me to believe that!)

So there's a division between what a christian professes, and what they really are inside. How can this be rectified? You said that these areas are not perfected yet, and that we have put them 'off limits' to god. I think we should be going to god every day for these areas. I really believe that's what being a christian is.

[gromitt82]

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to be asking this, but I work in a church, and our assistant Pastor is so "socially clueless" it's frustrating me to no end. He says & does what I consider some of the dumest, insensitve, things that I just feel so guilty for feeling so frustrated over.
-He forgets to give me phone messages
- He absolutly will not admit he may be wrong over things, and when he IS wrong, he won't apologize
- He hasn't got a servants heart whatsoever, which in my mind, is like a teacher who doesn't like kids......I would think a Pastor would want to serve
- He won't help with any problem I may have in the office if he doesn't know (photocopier jam), instead of maybe at least trying to help me fix the problem
- It takes him MOST of the week, full days to prepair a 20 min. sermon

I could go on and on, & I realize I'm sounding like I'm keeping record of wrongs, and I don't mean to, I just feel so frustrated (& guilty for feeling so frustrated), and don't know how to bring this stuff up to him. It's comon sense, and he doesn't seem to have any.

Got any advise for me???

From what you sayo it seems pretty obvious that your Pastor is just a plain human being. What I mean by that is that you could easily translate all these defects to a person working in an office who would be your boss.
This behavior is rather typical of someone who is unsure and unconfident of himself and fight this complex by pretending just the opposite, i.e. that he knows better than everybody else.
There is no question in my mind that he needs help, and you are perhaps the only one to provide it.
There is a Chinese proverb that says “The bamboo that bends. is stronger than the oak that resists”.
That means that instead of arguing with him when you are right and he is wrong, try to simply and humbly show what you have done and, if necessary, pretend you did it according “to his own idea”. Unless he is a total waste, he may eventually, get the message and change, though it may take some time.

[Pastor_Walt]

It's funny the way people seem to want to respond to this: either spiritualize it ("God is developing your character") - which means essentially, "Suck it up you whiny baby," or defending it ("Pastors are busy" etc.) - which means you're somehow just supposed to overlook it.

I have been a pastor for 25+ years, and sometimes have even been the pastor you describe. This is simply not acceptable behavior in any setting/workplace, whether it's a church or not is irrelevant. I'd suggest two different approaches: (1) Make an appointment with him personally and share you grievances (ala Matthew 18). He might or might not listen. Regardless, you should at least give him that opportunity, then follow the guidelines in Matthew 18:15ff. (2) Assuming it's just personal irritation and maybe not a deep enough "sin" to demand formal action (as in Mt. 18), like in any other business, try going to his boss, which would mean either the Senior Pastor or perhaps the Board (or if applicable, a regional Bishop, District Superintendent, etc.).

Yes, your character is being developed. But that is no excuse for unacceptable and unprofessional behavior for anyone!

[gromitt82]

I am of the opinion Pastor_Walt has also given a sound advice.
Gromitt83