[De Maria]

Merriam-Webster online dictionary: lord -- a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due

Define: Lord
# Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God
# overlord: a person who has general authority over others
# a titled peer of the realm
# make a lord of someone
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[Tj3]

Let me get this straight, you are arguing that the Holy Spirit inspired St. Elizabeth to say that Jesus is not God?

My but aren't you the master twister. Once again, use your energy in defending your position rather than trying to tell other people what to believe or what they believe.

[De Maria]

Its interesting that Wondergirl and TJ are arguing that Jesus is not God.

[Tj3]

Define: Lord
# Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God
# overlord: a person who has general authority over others
# a titled peer of the realm
# make a lord of someone
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Exactly what I said.

[De Maria]

Exactly what I said.

So when St. Elizabeth said Mother of my Lord, she meant Mother of God.

[Tj3]

Its interesting that Wondergirl and TJ are arguing that Jesus is not God.

It is pretty sad when you must deliberately lie about what others have said to defend your position.

[Tj3]

So when St. Elizabeth said Mother of my Lord, she meant Mother of God.

You did not read that definition.

[De Maria]

It is pretty sad when you must deliberately lie about what others have said to defend your position.

The evidence is in the messages. We're talking about St. Elizabeth saying that Mary is the mother of my Lord.

Wondergirl said:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Merriam-Webster online dictionary: lord -- a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due

And you said:
This actually argues against you. Elizabeth did NOT say "mother of God", but rather chose another term indicating authority, used of both men and of God. Jesus is Lord, yes, and Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but it is interesting that she chose the term "Lord" rather than "God" to describe Mary's status.

Since the Jews used the designation Lord for God, then if you think then in what sense was the baby in that womb her Lord? He isn't her husband. He isn't a Judge. He is God.

[Tj3]

The evidence is in the messages. We're talking about St. Elizabeth saying that Mary is the mother of my Lord.

Lord simply means a person in authority. It's use is not exclusive to God. If you want to see someone refer to God, look at what Thomas said:

John 20:27-28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV

If "my lord" meant "My God", then Thomas would not have added the "My God" comment. But He did because it is important to note that Jesus is not just Lord (which could mean that He was just a man with authority), but He is also God.

Mary is referred to as "mother of my lord", not "mother of God" or "mother of my God". She was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not the mother of divinity.

[De Maria]

Lord simply means a person in authority. It's use is not exclusive to God. If you want to see someone refer to God, look at what Thomas said:

John 20:27-28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV

If "my lord" meant "My God", then Thomas would not have added the "My God" comment.

Yes, he would. It is a Hebrewism. Jews frequently repeat the same thing in different words.

Another example is:
Zacharias 9 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion, shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem: BEHOLD THY KING will come to thee, the just and saviour: he is poor, and riding upon an , and upon a colt the foal of an .

That's just one being described as an and a foal of an .

3 Kings 1 38 So Sadoc the priest, and Nathan the prophet went down, and Banaias the son of Joiada, and the Cerethi, and Phelethi: and they set Solomon upon the mule of king David, and brought him to Gihon.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Since the Jews used the designation Lord for God, then if you think then in what sense was the baby in that womb her Lord? He isn't her husband. He isn't a Judge. He is God.

The Jews, in Hebrew use the word "YHWH" which has been translated as Lord in the OT in many Bibles. It is, however, not the only word translated as lord, which is why you find that when it is YHWH that is translated as "lord", most Bibles put it in capital letters as "LORD".

In the NT, you will see that God is often referred to as lord, but so are others who are not God. That is why we find frequently use of the term "Lord God" to designate who is being referred to. We also find other indiactions when it is God. But lord does not always means God in either the OT or NT. Examples of exceptions are:

2 Sam 24:3
3 And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?"
NKJV


Matt 25:19-20
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
NKJV

So, No, despite your claim, "My Lord" does not mean the same as "My God"

BTW, I find it interesting that you say that Jesus isn't a judge.

2 Tim 4:1
4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
NKJV

[arcura]

Tj3,
Wong again.
Perhaps your memory is failing.
As I mentioned I have previously provided biblical and historical proofs of what you said is "my opinion".
I believe actual, accurate history, but you can believe as you wish.
If you want to not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ that is your right to do so.
But I will continue to believe that Jesus is God The Son of Mary and God the Father.
And as the bible clearly says Jesus founded The Church on the Rock he called Peter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Wong again.
Perhaps your memory is failing.
As I mentioned I have previously provided biblical and historical proofs of what you said is "my opinion".

All of which have been refuted.

If you want to not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ that is your right to do so.

Mis-representing my beliefs does not in any way enhance the credibility of your position.

And as the bible clearly says Jesus founded The Church on the Rock he called Peter.

Believe what you wish - but believing something does not make it so. I believe what the Bible says about what Peter was called:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

It is helpful to have scripture tells us what was meant.

[arcura]

Tj3.
You said, "Believe what you wish - but believing something does not make it so."
I agree.
That applies to everyone including YOU!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3.
You said, "Believe what you wish - but believing something does not make it so."
I agree.
That applies to everyone including YOU!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It does indeed and I have said so myself many times. Indeed, I encourage people not to believe something because I say it, but rather to be as Bereans and to check out what scripture says for themselves! That is why I submit my beliefs under the authority of the word of God, and let the word of God interpret itself.

BTW, that is why I think that respectful interaction on areas of scripture where we disagree is good, whether we come to agreement - as long as both parties are really desiring the truth and are willing truly interact and not just blindly toss out pat responses, or just "you are wrong" comments.

[De Maria]

The Jews, in Hebrew use the word "YHWH" which has been translated as Lord in the OT in many Bibles. It is, however, not the only word translated as lord, which is why you find that when it is YHWH that is translated as "lord", most Bibles put it in capital letters as "LORD".

In the NT, you will see that God is often referred to as lord,

Ok.

but so are others who are not God.

But Jesus is God and we are talking about St. Elizabeth using the term "Mother of my Lord" in reference to Jesus.

Therefore we have two options.

Elizabeth is saying "Mother of my Lord" recognizing that Jesus is God. In which case, she means "Mother of my God".

Or Elizabeth is saying "Mother of my Lord" because she believes Jesus is one of the others who is not God. In which case, you have stripped Jesus of His Divinity.

That is why we find frequently use of the term "Lord God" to designate who is being referred to. We also find other indiactions when it is God. But lord does not always means God in either the OT or NT. Examples of exceptions are:

2 Sam 24:3
3 And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?"
NKJV


Matt 25:19-20
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
NKJV

So, No, despite your claim, "My Lord" does not mean the same as "My God"

It does in this instance unless you don't believe that Jesus is God.

BTW, I find it interesting that you say that Jesus isn't a judge.

2 Tim 4:1
4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
NKJV

Not I. Jesus is our Judge because He is God. But if you strip Him of Divinity from the womb, then there is no reason for St. Elizabeth to call Him Lord.

But back to the issue. Elizabeth calls Mary the Mother of my Lord. If you claim that she doesn't mean Mother of My God, then you are saying that Jesus is not God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Ok.
But Jesus is God and we are talking about St. Elizabeth using the term "Mother of my Lord" in reference to Jesus.

Therefore we have two options.

Elizabeth is saying "Mother of my Lord" recognizing that Jesus is God. In which case, she means "Mother of my God".

That is an assumption that you are making because it is is necessary to validate your point. It is however not in harmony wityh the known facts. Yes, Jesus is God, but Mary is the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not of His divinity, and the word that Elizabeth chose, which speaks about Mary's role as mother (not Jesus's role), says that she is mother of "my lord", not ""my God". Which fits in perfectly with what we know - that mary was not mother of divinity (God), but mother of Jesus in the flesh.

Or Elizabeth is saying "Mother of my Lord" because she believes Jesus is one of the others who is not God. In which case, you have stripped Jesus of His Divinity.

You see you are creating a false dichotomy. These are NOT the only two options. Indeed you are not acknowledging the most obvious option.

It does in this instance unless you don't believe that Jesus is God.

I have shown you time and again that that is not true and is a false conclusion.

Not I. Jesus is our Judge because He is God.

You said that He was not a judge. But He is.

But back to the issue. Elizabeth calls Mary the Mother of my Lord. If you claim that she doesn't mean Mother of My God, then you are saying that Jesus is not God.

If you say that she is mother of God, then you are either denying the trinity or claiming that God was not pre-existent.

[Fr_Chuck]

Post closed, arguments becoming repeating and many merely a matter of doctrine.