[arcura]

ZachZ ,
Regarding your statement about God being three beings = 3 gods. I offer a different view.
The trinity is believed to be three PERSONS in ONE GOD.
That is very similar to we humans being a trinity of three.
We are one being made up of body, mind, and spirit.
Another way of looking at it I am a being who is a husband, father, and grandfather.
Indeed these are over simplifications of the Divine Trinity, but they do give a person a somewhat idea of the triune God.
I hope that is some help for your understanding of that.
Shalom,
Fred (arcura)

[Lilmkiss]

ZachZ ,
Regarding your statement about God being three beings = 3 gods. I offer a different view.
The trinity is believed to be three PERSONS in ONE GOD.
That is very similar to we humans being a trinity of three.
We are one being made up of body, mind, and spirit.
Another way of looking at it I am a being who is a husband, father, and grandfather.
Indeed these are over simplifications of the Divine Trinity, but they do give a person a somewhat idea of the triune God.
I hope that is some help for your understanding of that.
Shalom,
Fred (arcura)

Then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? Such as a father and son relationship?

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
I have difficulty understanding your question.
It must mean something more that the obvious I memtioned as an example.
It was three persons in one individual.
That is the point I was trying to make.
A more complex on is the fact that we humans are a trinity of mind body and spirit.
All work together in one individual to accomplish many different tasks.
Try cooking a nice breakfast without your mind, or body, or spirit working.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


.

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss,
I have difficulty understanding your question.
It must mean something more that the obvious I memtioned as an example.
It was three persons in one individual.
That is the point I was trying to make.
A more complex on is the fact that we humans are a trinity of mind body and spirit.
All work together in one individual to accomplish many different tasks.
Try cooking a nice breakfast without your mind, or body, or spirit working.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


.

My question was very simple being one indifidual (single/one person) how can they have the Father/Son Relationship? This requires 2 indiviuals in the relationship not 1 and this is scripturaly shown in many place's in the bible matthew being one of them.

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


and in luke

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

How can the same person have two different wants / wills and still be the same person this clearly shows two different people having a relationship and the son is submiting himself to his fathers will. Hence these are two different people. (one can not submit to him self)

[Wondergirl]

then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? such as a father and son relationship?

Fred was trying to say that a person may fill multiple roles and still be just one person. For instance, Bob can be a father to Melissa and Billy. Bob can also be a husband to Gayle. Bob can be grandfather to Jimmy, Suzie, and Billy.

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
In my case a father son relationship does require 2 individuals one being the Father the other being the son in a family relationship.
In the case of the of the Triune God they the Father and The Son are 2 different individuals but they are in one being.
Some theologians think of the three persons on the Trinity are a divine family of three.
As the bible says, "with God all things are possible."
I do believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[maje3]

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

God the Father is a spirt which manifested Himself into man through a woman. The spirit of God resurrected Jesus. You can find this in the book of John chapter 1 verses 1-5 and verse 14.

[maje3]

God the Father is a spirt which manifested Himself into man through a woman. The spirit of God resurrected Jesus. You can find this in the book of John chapter 1 verses 1-5 and verse 14.

[De Maria]

then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? such as a father and son relationship?

You just explained it. A father has a relationship of love with his son. That one statement explains the Trinity.

God the Father loves God the Son and the Love that they have for each other is God the Holy Spirit.

[De Maria]

My question was very simple being one indifidual (single/one person)

You are mistaken. The three persons consist in one God.

how can they have the Father/Son Relationship? This requires 2 indiviuals

It requires to persons.

in the relationship not 1 and this is scripturaly shown in many place's in the bible matthew being one of them.

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


and in luke

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

How can the same person have two different wants / wills

Jesus has a human will and a Divine will. How He has it is a mystery. It is a truth revealed by Divine revelation.

and still be the same person this clearly shows two different people having a relationship and the son is submiting himself to his fathers will. Hence these are two different people. (one can not submit to him self)

No, it shows two different Persons. People are human beings by definition. However, persons may human or divine.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[wildandblue]

Please answer me this -- Is it valid to vow a sacrifice to HaShem that is clearly against His Torah? What if I were to say "I vow to steal $1,000 from my neighbor and dedicate it to HaShem." We all agree that stealing violates Torah commandments--at least two, clearly: Exodus 20:15, and Deut. 5:19. Is my offering acceptable? No. Is my vow valid? No.



Agreed, and agreed!!



I don't think you or any other Christian is a jerk for being Christian, I just think you're misguided.

Your original question mentions Jesus all over it. That is what I was referring to. You ask a Q referring to Jesus, then say you can't accept any reasons based on the New Testament. That's why I asked so what are we talking about Jesus for if New Testament has to be disregarded, and He is not in the Old Testament. The argument seems circular.
The scriptures I cited, the whole gist of my last communication is my reply to your question. Apparently making a vow to God trumps other laws. Why, I have no idea, God tells me what to do, I don't tell Him
Apparently in complicated matters the priest would stand before God with Ummim and Thumin to decide these things? Also the Old Testament often says, "in those days there was no king in Israel, a man would do whatever was good in his own eyes"

[cogs]

The tie between jesus the son and god the father is the spirit of god. We don't know what spirit is, because we can't see it. But it must have power, because jesus could do things no other human being could do. He attributed his power to god the father, so they interacted intimately, on a spiritual basis. God's spirit of power rose jesus from death, so some would say his sacrifice was meaningless, if god didn't die. Whatever importance god placed on jesus' sacrifice, we know was worth the payment for all of the sins of mankind. So that death was very important. And the resurrection was the continuation of a plan for mankind's eternity. God also speaks of jesus as a stumblingblock, or stumblingstone. If we get caught up in the impossibility of jesus' miracles, instead of the importance of his atonement and love, we're stumbling at something that will ultimately lead to vanity.

[maje3]

Jesus did die. He went into hell for three days to overcome death and the devil so that we can have eternal life. He rose from the dead 3 days later. The blood of Jesus is what washes our sins away which is what the sacrifice was for. Jesus was said to be the cornerstone, not a stumbling stone. Ephesians 2:20, 1 peter 2:6, isaiah 28:16, which is saying Jesus is the foundation. Cogs, I like your philosophy of the stumblingstone. It is not scriptual but it does make sense. Faith is believing the things we can not see, the things we think are impossible. God said lean not to our own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Very correct responses.
Fred

[Lilmkiss]

Jesus did die. He went into hell for three days to overcome death and the devil so that we can have eternal life. He rose from the dead 3 days later. The blood of Jesus is what washes our sins away which is what the sacrafice was for. Jesus was said to be the cornerstone, not a stumbling stone. ephesians 2:20, 1 peter 2:6, isaiah 28:16, which is saying Jesus is the foundation. Cogs, I like your philosophy of the stumblingstone. It is not scriptual but it does make sence. Faith is believing the things we can not see, the things we think are impossible. God said lean not to our own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

NEVER, NEVER did Jesus go to hell! He went to the waiting place for those that where going to heaven and preached to them. At no point in the bible did Jesus ever, ever go to hell. This is only taught by the roman catholic church and was introduced by the apostles creed which again is only used in the roman catholic church.

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
The Catholic Church agrees with "the waiting place" you mentioned.
It is called Purgatory.
Fred

[Lilmkiss]

You are mistaken. The three persons consist in one God.


It requires to persons.

Both of these sentences where meant to be read together not apart and it was a question to show that to say that there is only one person but he just plays the three different roles is a very inacurate and oversimplification is not the right way to say it except that it is 100% wrong. That's what this was meant to say

Jesus has a human will and a Divine will. How He has it is a mystery. It is a truth revealed by Divine revelation.

it is no mystery " with God all things are posible" you are right that we may not be able to understand why, but look where we live, we are in a close minded society that inhibits thinkers or new ideas. (we could go in deaper to this but we would have to make a different form to desucs my idea's on our society.)

No, it shows two different Persons. People are human beings by definition. However, persons may human or divine.

I am sorry but I see no diffrence between people/person, beings/being or individuals/individual (they do have their context but please they mean the same thing I won't argue simatics)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

both of these sentences where meant to be read together not apart and it was a question to show that to say that there is only one person but he just plays the three different roles

Sorry, but that is not the doctrine. There are THREE Persons in ONE God.

is a very inacurate and oversimplification is not the right way to say it except that it is 100% wrong. That's what this was meant to say

Well, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and She teaches that doctrine. The Catholic Church is called the Pillar of Truth in Scripture and is therefore infallible.

I believe the Catholic Church.

it is no mystery " with God all things are posible" you are right that we may not be able to understand why, but look where we live, we are in a close minded society that inhibits thinkers or new ideas. (we could go in deaper to this but we would have to make a different form to desucs my idea's on our society.)

Exactly! Look around. The culture has changed from a culture who understood ABSOLUTE Truths to one who prefers to believe whatever is between their ears. This is a RELATIVISTIC Society.

I am sorry but I see no diffrence between people/person, beings/being or individuals/individual

Apparently you are going by the secular definition. However, you are on a Christian forum and we are discussing the Theological definition of Person and God.

(they do have their context but please they mean the same thing I won't argue simatics)

As they say at Burger King, "Have it your way!";)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss,
The Catholic Church agrees with "the waiting place" you mentioned.
It is called Purgatory.
Fred

Hee if you read the bible they went to heaven/Paridice afterward no one waits anymore they where waiting for Jesus to come before they entred heaven hence now that he has come there is no more need to wait. (I am not getting back into this with you I have given your scripture in context and found no proof for your asumptions that pergatory exists.)

[arcura]

Lilmkiss
Sorry, I believe what the bible says.
Several passages indicate that Purgatory exists.
I have posted them before.
Fred