[Tj3]

Tj3 thanks for the back and forth... it helps to discuss and learn... i'm going home from work. i hope all of us can believe in a living god.

Have a good evening.

[Peter Wilson]

He was fully submitted to the Father, and did not inherit the sin nature.

I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)

[Peter Wilson]

To be "born again" is to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Water is the principle sign in this Sacrament because water is used to wash away filth from the body. Therefore it is used to signify the real washing away of filth from the soul and thus being born into the Body of Christ.

How do you know that you have been born again for sure? If you have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and either washed or dipped in water as a sign of that Baptism.

Water is definitely a part of it, but being Born again is more than being sprinkled as a baby.
You have to make a decision to turn from sin and towards God, this is what "repent" means.
Then to confess that you are a sinner and need a Savior, to confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, then you will be saved.

Romans 10
8
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


That is not the end of the story though, in order to do this, you must firstly, "make a decision".
A baby cannot,"make a decision", neither can they confess their sin, or even confess that Jesus died for their sin and rose again on the third day.
It must be an adult decision, "The answer of a good conscience" as Peter puts it in 1 Peter.
Then you must ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, for if your son asks you for bread, you will not give him a stone, even so, if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, then you will receive it.

Luke 11

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
When you do, it will be accompanied by signs, one of which is speaking in an unknown tongue, or "the tongues of angels" as Paul calls it in 1 Corinthians 14.
In Acts 2:38-39,
Peter states
38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."
What happened when they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, (I might add here, that Mary also needed the Holy Spirit, as she was also in the Upper room),
they spoke in tongues.
When Simon the sorcerer saw the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands, he wanted this power also. (Acts 8)
What did he see, babies getting sprinkled, I think that he was amazed at the miraculous signs that he saw.
What were these signs.
In Acts 10, Cornelius received the word of God and believed, the Holy Ghost fell on him and he spoke in tongues.
In Chapter 11, Peter says,

15
As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning,
16
and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17
If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?"
18
When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, "God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too."

In Acts 19, there were some new believers that Paul met,


1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples.
2
He said to them, "Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?" They answered him, "We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit."
3
He said, "How were you baptized?" They replied, "With the baptism of John."
4
Paul then said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus."
5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6
And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
7
Altogether there were about twelve men.

This is a sign that can be verified not only in the Bible, but by many thousands today.
I am not saying that it is the only sign, but if you don't have this gift, then I would wonder as to the validity of your supposed "Born again " experience.
You did have an experience didn't you?
If you obey God and get baptized by full immersion, that is "Buried in Baptism" (Romans 6) and ask, in faith, to receive the Holy Spirit, then just submit your life, (this includes your tongue!) and begin to praise Him, fully expecting to speak in tongues, then you will.
However, you don't have to be baptized first, to receive the Holy Spirit , as was my experience, but you still need to obey God and get baptized.
Not because I or anybody else tells you to, but because you believe that is is God's will that you do this.

A couple of examples,

John 1

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Being Born again, is not something that we can do, our spirit is made alive unto God, when we are immersed into the Holy Spirit.


The Baptism of Jesus
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

If Jesus needed to get baptized by full immersion, then we should follow his example, to fulfil all righteousness.






29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

Even in Jesus day, the religious leaders rejected the way and plan of God in order to preserve their own religious ideas!
Do you reject it today?

Acts 22

14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Even as Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, His commandment was to be baptized and wash his sins away, exactly the experience that I had when I was obedient to God's word.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I just thought that I would go under. Get wet and get out!
But as soon as my head broke out of that water, I felt clean immediately.
I knew that all my sins were washed away, my desire for alcohol, drugs and illegitimate sex, were gone immediately.
Even the desire for cigarettes was taken away!
I couldn't even stay in the same room as some-one swearing, anymore, for at least 6 months afterwards!
It was like some-one hitting my spirit with a stick when they swore!
Maybe you will accept something less, but that is your choice, and when you stand before God, then you will have to explain why you rejected His way for your own way.
My greatest desire for you, is that you come into the knowledge of the truth, not by my argument, but by the submitting of yourself to the revealed will of God, so that God will do His part in the promise,
39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

And to let Jesus have the last word on this, from Mark 16

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


Peace.:)

[Tj3]

I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".

He was subject to temptation, but the sin nature refers to the desire to sin inherited through the generations.

[cogs]

I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)

Peter, I think you got this right, and I needed to hear it. As far as the tongues, and the baptism, I think that's right too, but for me right now, I'm not going to do that, because I'm having enough trouble living in god's spirit, and listening to him. If he tells me that, then I'll probably end up doing it. The reason why I accept about the tongues, is because I've read books that have explained what you did in the post of yours above, using the same scriptures. But I will tell you, that god will not leave me where I am because I haven't been immersed, or speak with tongues. These things are physical, and in order not to sin, I need god's spirit, which is spiritual. Some things in the bible are symbolic and figurative, just like the parables. When jesus washed the apostles' feet, it was a symbol that we indeed needed cleansing by god. We aren't going around washing peoples' feet, just because jesus did. We're the ones in need of cleansing. Also, wouldn't you agree that immersion is the picture of jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and that our sinful nature must go through the same process? And, as far as speaking in tongues, out of our inner parts, flow the rivers of living waters, through the holy spirit, that is a fountain of eternal life, of which we drink. So you can see how I have the thinking, that not all is literal when it comes to doing physical things in the bible. I take this stance, because I look at how it helps me develop spiritually, with the living god inside, telling me what to do.

[cogs]

I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)

peter, what role does the holy spirit play in our choice to deny sin? I ask, because when I realize I really cannot stop sinning, I wonder if god's power is helping me. If you understand the operation of this power, please reply. I know that the spirit shows me my sin that I cannot discover myself, but I wonder if the spirit helps me to overcome even the temptation, by some action? You said your desire to quit certain things stopped altogether. What about us, who still have the desire? Do we continually have to deny the temptation, or is there help to overcome completely?

[ScottRC]

I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".

That's an interesting opinion... but I'm wondering then, what did 2 Cor 5:21 mean?

"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him." (DR)

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.

Please expand on this.


God bless..

[cogs]

That's an interesting opinion... but I'm wondering then, what did 2 Cor 5:21 mean?

"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him." (DR)

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin.... but that he simply resisted.

Please expand on this.


God bless..

2Cr 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. ASV
this is making jesus like a scapegoat, where he took our punishment for sin upon himself. He was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice. He was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin. This is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

[ScottRC]

this is making jesus like a scapegoat, where he took our punishment for sin upon himself.

Ummm... that's what He did (Died for our sins), right?

Not sure what you are objecting to.

he was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice.

A sacrifice is meant to atone for sins... so I'm still confused as to your intitial comment.

he was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin.

Now I'm really confused... he took the punishment for sin, but you object to making him out to be a "scapegoat" where he took the punishment for sin.... :confused:

this is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

I'm not making a judgement, just trying to understand why you two believe this...

I don't expect you to accept my reasons for rejecting this notion (the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553) but I'm hoping you can explain your views.

Thanks for your helping me understand your faith!

[cogs]

Ummm.... that's what He did (Died for our sins), right?

Not sure what you are objecting to.

A sacrifice is meant to atone for sins... so I'm still confused as to your intitial comment.

lol, no, I'm supporting the scripture we posted... lol... you misunderstand, because I'm not saying it's bad that he was a scapegoat. A scapegoat was, in the old testament, a goat they used as a symbol for a sacrifice of sin. So jesus was a scapegoat, symbolically.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
I'm saying that the blame (scapegoat) fell on jesus, for all of us.

[ScottRC]

i'm saying that the blame (scapegoat) fell on jesus, for all of us.

Ok... but I'm hoping that you'll comment on my earlier post:

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.

How do you think it is possible for God to sin?

[tsila1777]

Matthew 3
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
The devil did have the power to give Jesus the kingdoms of the world, because after Adam sinned satan became god of this world. It would not have been a temptation if this were not so. Jesus would have known that.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you…. That is how you stop sin in your life. The devil is the tempter…we have a choice to follow him or to follow Jesus and say, It is written, Thou shalt not murder…steal…lie…covet…commit adultery… whatever it is that you are tempted to do, there is a Scripture for it. Then draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

Whatever is in your heart will come out your mouth. Feast on the Word of God and it will fill your heart and you will be prepared for every trick of the devil.

The Holy Spirit baptized us with Jesus when we accepted Jesus as Lord, born-again. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit, evidence of speaking in tongues. These are two separate acts. It is our spirit, sometimes translated heart, that is born-again. Our mind which is our will and emotions must be renewed by the Word of God.

Abraham was under grace, not under law. Abraham was a believer with faith, who loved and obeyed God, and needed no Law. Jesus Christ the promised Seed of Abraham was born and died under the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 21:23; Galatians 3:13). Being made a curse for us, His death and resurrection redeemed us from the curse of the Law, that the blessing of Abraham might come on we Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so we might receive the promise of the Spirit or new birth through faith.
Every Christian was judged and condemned, and has already paid for his sins in Christ on Calvary since we are each Attributes in the Logos of God. Then God raised Christ for our justification so we can never again come into condemnation. We were glorified and made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Romans 4:13-25; 8:28-30; I Corinthians 5:13-21).
We are sons and daughters of Abraham, gentiles, not Jews; we were never under the law. We are now, because of Mercy, under Grace. We are the wild olive branches that were grafted in for a season…the Jews are the natural branches.

I have been accused of writing my posts too long. I am sorry it this is too long.

[cogs]

You're saying that if you have the scripture, then you can resist the devil, and stop sinning? What would happen if you could stop sinning altogether like jesus did? Why didn't abraham need scripture, that wasn't written yet? Are we really sitting in heavenly places right now? I'm asking these, because right now, I have the holy spirit, and I've never spoke in tongues. But I have had what I believe god, speak to me. Although it wasn't a voice, it was a knowing. Once, when I was a teen, he let me know that we were created for his good pleasure. Now, as an adult, that the kingdom is what is important in a person's life. I didn't understand that, but I'm beginning to. Also, I have thought things only to myself, but they have come to pass, and I believe god could read my mind, cause I didn't tell anyone. I believe the more I listen to him, the more I'll hear. He's made some passages of scripture quite easy to understand. Again, it's a knowing, as if I've just discovered something. Not because I was thinking about it so much, but it comes from out of nowhere. However, I think the bible certainly does point us in the right direction, toward finding out what his personality is, and what we should be doing. So I rely on both bible and word, but the living word takes precedence, and the bible should certainly support him. One example:
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

[cogs]

Ok.... but I'm hoping that you'll comment on my earlier post:

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin.... but that he simply resisted.

How do you think it is possible for God to sin?

With what power did jesus do his miracles? With the spirit of holiness, or god's spirit. With what power do we stop sinning? The same spirit of holiness. If we didn't need it, jesus wouldn't have asked the father to send it. Jesus had flesh like us, and he went through the same temptations. We know how we feel when tempted. Did he feel any different? When they nailed him, did he feel pain? So if we are able to sin, then why wasn't jesus? Were the temptations not really dangerous? Was it just a show, especially when he was really hungry and weak, to show us that he's god, and can tie one hand behind his back, and temptation just bounces off? I know he quoted scripture. But scripture will not keep you from sinning, but are a focus for your mind. It's your internal mind and heart that will stop you from sinning. But this is only strengthened over time. I'm not sure how jesus conditioned his spirit, or what took place when he was growing up, but he was impervious to temptation, because of his will to obey god. Not because he couldn't sin.

[ScottRC]

i'm not sure how jesus conditioned his spirit, or what took place when he was growing up, but he was impervious to temptation, because of his will to obey god. not because he couldn't sin.

Okey dokey... thanks for explaining your beliefs.

[cogs]

Okey dokey... thanks for explaining your beliefs.

Until I hear something that makes me believe different. How do you believe jesus overcame temptation?

[ScottRC]

until i hear something that makes me believe different. how do you believe jesus overcame temptation?

I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate... and overcame temptation because of his divine power.

The historical Christian beliefs contend that Jesus was truly 100% God and 100% man... like us in all things EXCEPT for sin... and we believe God COULD NOT sin... but thanks again for your explanation.

[cogs]

I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate... and overcame temptation because of his divine power.

The historical Christian beliefs contend that Jesus was truly 100% God and 100% man... like us in all things EXCEPT for sin.... and we believe God COULD NOT sin.... but thanks again for your explaination.

Then what need had he of temptation?

[cogs]

To make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?

[De Maria]

Tj3 thanks for the back and forth... it helps to discuss and learn... i'm going home from work. i hope all of us can believe in a living god.

Yes we can!! Amen!