[Lilmkiss]

You have to be carfull of that because the church is made of men, men lie cheat steal and will do anything for greed I am not saying everyone is like this but man himself is not supposed to be trusted and we are to test everything to scripture

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
The Bible tells us that The Church Jesus founded is the pillar and foundation of the truth, It is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness ,
Fred

[ScottRC]

so if you are truly a Christian then this very verse disproves the idea of us working to heven or others good works bringing them to heven simply because there is no other way to God but through what Jesus did end of story people Purgatory does not exist.

This really does not make any sense... one has nothing to do with the other... Jesus is the Way, nothing about the teaching of Purgatory denies this... I don't think you understand the teaching if that is what you believe.

this is what Jesus himself said and if we need Purgatory then that means Jesus lied so my question to you is Did Jesus lie?

No, Jesus did not lie... that's not possible... but again, you simply don't understand that purgatory does not deny what Christ said.
This might help explain: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

you have to be carfull of that because the church is made of men, men lie cheat steal and will do anything for greed I am not saying everyone is like this but man himself is not supposed to be trusted and we are to test everything to scripture

All you have to do is explain how we (men) are to test everything to scripture without involving men in the process----- and THEN this would make sense.

When you test something to scripture, all you have then is your PERSONAL interpretation of what is contained in Scripture... how is that an objective standard for determining orthodoxy?

[arcura]

ScottRC.
Excellent post that.
And the link you provided is a great help in providing understanding of Heaven, hell, and Purgatory.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Peter Wilson]

ScottRC, the problem with the Catholic church using allegories, is that you believe the allegory itself, instead of the truth that it should be trying to convey.
Lazarus and the rich man, was a parable, to say that the Jews wouldn't even believe if some-one rose from the dead.
This is not about Purgatory, Jesus was foretelling of His resurrection, and that even though He rose from the dead, they wouldn't believe.
The Catholic church has done this for centuries, making it a mystery religion, that is, only those that have been taught in the mysteries of the Church can interpret the meaning, via their allegories.
They literalise (is that a word ?) parables and sayings, that were given to explain a greater truth, that is those allegories or parables given by Jesus or the Holy Spirit, then, they use allegories to explain the literal words of the Bible and so end up with a completely different gospel.
In Mathew 16, when Jesus calls Simon a stone, he was one of the first to believe that Jesus was the Christ, and upon that statement that Jesus is the Christ, is the faith upon which the Church is built, not on Peter, the Church is built on Christ!
If you believe that statement from Jesus proves that Peter was the first Pope, then in verse 23-Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
If Peter is the head of the Catholic church, then he must be satan...

I know this isn't so, but he was listening to the enemy and tried to stop Jesus fulfilling His passion, even though Peter didn't know that he was being used.
Jesus told the spirit that was speaking to Peter's mind to "get behind me", that is, so that spirit would not influence his obedience to God.
The bread and the wine, are symbols of Jesus broken body and shed blood, not the literal body and blood.
We do this to remember Christ's death until he comes.
You would do better to believe in the truth of God's word, see the truth conveyed by His allegories and parables or sayings, not in the allegories or sayings of man.
God will not honour what He hasn't said, you can believe in Purgatory, if you like, but you will never come to the knowledge of the truth if you believe the fables and cleverly invented stories of the Catholic church.
I am just amazed that you can't see it, certainly, the devil has blinded your eyes.
It is just superstitous claptrap, that has grown rich from the selling of indulgences in centuries past and vicously murdered those that would oppose their ideas.
I have heard told, that the catholic church murdered more people in the years of the reformation than both world wars put together.
Read "Fox's book of Martyrs", even as Jesus said of the Jews,
Mathew 23

29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

31"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?


Sounds very similar to Revelation 18
Lament for Babylon
9"And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,
10standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

11"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

14"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15"The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!' And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

18and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What city is like the great city?'

19"And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!'

20"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

22"And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Mystery Babylon is thought to be a picture of the catholic Church, it certainly describes it perfectly.
Rome is even built on seven hills.
Of course, you will find an allegory to evade the truth and follow the lie.
Perhaps I should tell you of the lives of some of the popes, and even the female pope, Pope Joan .
From "The story of Civilization: The Reformation" by Durant, has this account,
During those days, Martin Luther,while still a priest of the papal church, travelled to Rome.
As he caught the first glimpse of the seven hilled city,he fell to the ground and said "Holy Rome, I salute thee".
He had not spent much time there, however, until he saw that Rome was anything but a Holy City.
Iniquity existed among all classes of the clergy.
Priests told indecent jokes and used awful profanity,even during mass.
The papal court was served at supper by twelve naked girls.
"No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome", he said "they must be seen and heard to be believed. Thus, they are in the habit of saying,"If there is a Hell, Rome is built over it".

[sndbay]

Tj3,
What make you think that because Purgatory exist there is a different gospel?
It's the same Jesus Christ and what He did for us.
Without Purgatory to cleans souls of their sinful nature very few would get to heaven, only those who had no stain of sinful nature.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred listen to what you say, without purgatory? Then I ask you does this make what Christ did void? It certainly sounds as if you believe Christ was not enough to take away sin.. I rebuke the idea that purgatory is needed, and I believe Christ would rebuke it also.. Christ was enough once and for all.. Scripture does tell us that Truth..

Read scripture.

Mathew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This veil was once what the priest entered to give offerings to God for our sins. This veil was riped wide open by Christ giving us access into heaven.

Hebrews 6:14-20 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Have you not heard the oath God confirmed? Have you also not heard that Christ was made high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec? Perhaps lack of knowledge of what is and who is Melchisedec keeps you igornant of Truth ?

Hebrews 9: 3-5 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

This veil was riped open by Christ... Hebrews 9:6-10 is old time and the scripture explains this being what once was.

Hebrews 9:6-10 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

This next scripture is what NOW is: Hebrews 9:11-12

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

This scripture goes on to say that Christ does not have to do this as often as the priest did do. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Christ Our Saviour

[Tj3]

Lilmkiss,
The Bible tells us that The Church Jesus founded is the pillar and foundation of the truth, It is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness ,
Fred

Jesus did not found a denomination but rather, the scripture tells us, he founded the true church, the body of Christ.

[sndbay]

Jesus did not found a denomination but rather, the scripture tells us, he founded the true church, the body of Christ.

AGREE!! God was always the pillar

Scripture will back this up..

Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

Numbers 14:14 And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: [for] they have heard that thou LORD [art] among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and [that] thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.

This is written to the church of Philadelphia; Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Christ

[sndbay]

No, Jesus did not lie... that's not possible... but again, you simply don't understand that purgatory does not deny what Christ said.
This might help explain: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

These statements were made by the Catholic Chruch on the web site Scott offered.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).
Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.


Faith has a meaning: firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

So I view in this statement offered by the Catholic Church that the faith of the church equals that of it's own or ownership to it's own firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, and steadness.
AND So the Catholic Church has found truth in their own faith of the church .
________________________________

Where my belief and heart finds faith of scripture, being of Truth.

Acts 14:7 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

OR.. Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[ScottRC]

So I view in this statement offered by the Catholic Church that the faith of the church equals that of it's own or ownship to it's own firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, and steadness.
AND So the Catholic Church has found truth in their own faith of the church .

I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're going to have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply referring to... well... the faith of the Church... I don't know how else to put it... it is not faith IN THE Church... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:
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ScottRC, the problem with the Catholic church using allegories, is that you believe the allegory itself, instead of the truth that it should be trying to convey.

Okey dokey... thanks for your comments.

[sndbay]

I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're gonna have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply refering to ...... well...... the faith of the Church...... I don't know how else to put it...... it is not faith IN THE Church...... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:
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Scott this is my statement of faith.Ownership to my belief of faith in scripture, in The Word of God, Christ.
Where my belief and heart finds faith in scripture, being of Truth.


The statement made by the Catholic Church was of faith. Ownership to their belief of faith in the church being of truth, in purgatory.
Why do you shy from the statement that the church made? You have been saying in most of your statements that the church and their traditions are what you believe in. It is indeed their ownership to these same traditions.

[Tj3]

I can help you with the Catholicism, but you're going to have to learn reading comprehension on your own.

Scott, you really need to deal with these ad hominems.

"faith of the Church" in this sentence in simply referring to... well... the faith of the Church... I don't know how else to put it... it is not faith IN THE Church... again, I can't explain it any other way--- this is really just basic reading comprehension.:eek:

That won't cut it. The faith of the RC church is based upon the belief that the RC church is the only valid source of interpretation of truth and doctrine (i.e. the standard of truth and doctrine), and that the tradition of the church which summarizes the beliefs of the RC church leadership over the centuries is required to interpret and understand the faith of the church.

In other words, to have the faith of the RC church, you must have faith in the RC church.

I can validate every statement that I made from RC sources if necessary.

[ScottRC]

The statement made by the Catholic Church was of faith. Ownership to their belief of faith in the church being of truth, in purgatory.
Why do you shy from the statement that the church made? You have been saying in most of your statements that the church and their traditions are what you believe in. It is indeed their ownership to these same traditions.

Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension... but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... any attempt by you to twist my words to the contrary is simply false.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME... and stop trying to make assumptions based upon your misreading of something and forming your argument based upon that... it's a logical fallacy called a Straw man.

Peace be with you,
Scott

[sndbay]

Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension... but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel.... any attempt by you to twist my words to the contrary is simply false.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME.... and stop trying to make assumptions based upon your misreading of something and forming your argument based upon that... it's a logical fallacy called a Straw man.

Peace be with you,
Scott

Quote Scott.. my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... That's just Wonderful Scott!! Then please note that purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not in the Gospel and Jesus Christ..

My reading and learning comprehension is just fine because I have never said anything other then scripture is of Truth. Nor did I ever say the church was the pillar of foundation... or that The Rock is anything other then Christ..

[tsila1777]

Matthew 15

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Mark 7




5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Galatians 1


6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


1 Peter 1:17-19 (King James Version)




17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Colossians 2:7-9 (King James Version)




7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2


17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Romans 8:9-11 (King James Version)




9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Corinthians 5


16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Thessalonians 5:22-24


23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.


Since the God peace has sanctified us wholly and our whole spirit, soul and body shall be preserved blameless, and we have been made the righteousness of God, and we have been redeemed by the precious Blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: and He is now our High Priest, the author and finisher of our salvation: he took all our sins, forgave us, cleansed us…how could there be anything more? Jesus did it all; He is the end of our salvation…the end, to finish means to reach its conclusion. He deserves all our praise and honor He told us to rejoice because our Names are written in the Book of Life. We are His body,and members of His body... He is not going to send a part of His body back to purgatory... He already went to Hell for us and paid the price for our salvation.

It is finished.

[ScottRC]

quote Scott.. my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel... That's just Wonderful Scott!!

I certainly think it is!!

then please note that purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not in the Gospel and Jesus Christ..

Let's rephrase that... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

So, yet again, unless you can show me why your opinion is somehow divine and infallible, we're back to square one.:D

I don't know why it's not obvious to you and yours when participating in a thread like this how Scripture is not formally sufficient to establish orthodoxy... without authority to decide, all we have is your opinion vs. my opinion... in other words - no way to determine who is right... and this should CLEARLY illustrate the failure of the Protestant heresy.

Peace be with you,
Scott

[ScottRC]

He is not going to send a part of His body back to purgatory...

Huh?

"Back to purgatory"... what does that mean?

He already went to Hell for us and paid the price for our salvation.

Huh? Part two

What does this have to do with purgatory?

Purgatory is not hell.

:confused:

[arcura]

sndbay, Of course Jesus can and does wipe away (forgive) sins.
But please note that He did not purge us of our sinful nature.
He said "go and sin no more" which means that the person still has a sinful nature.
The Church Jesus founded had Peter as its first leader.
That is The Church that is the pillar and foundation of the truth no matter what others may believe that is the biblical truth.
It was not a denomination. At that time is was the first and only Church.
It still IS the first now called the Catholic Church.
Believe it for that is the truth, both the bible and history prove that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Nope not at all... I can't teach you reading comprehension...

This I logic fallacy called an ad hominem.

but I can assure you that my faith is based upon Jesus Christ and the Gospel...

It would be more effective to assure us by discussing theology respectfully rather than abusive and telling us to believe whatever you say.

It may be helpful for a continued discussion for you to leave the beliefs of the Catholic Church TO ME...

I am quite familiar with Roman Catholic beliefs. I cannot speak for others, but I will go by what your leaders have defined.

[ScottRC]

Amen! All with Peter to Jesus through Mary!