[N0help4u]

Exactly! None of the scriptures he brings up support purgatory!!
They support a God that wants revenge toward his people until they are purged by a fiery place when God means trials here on earth. I see no way that it means Jesus' death was not sufficient.

[Peter Wilson]

Even the most "righteous sinner" is unlean and detestable before God... and I'm sure we all have told our share of lies.... so I wonder how we can get our names in the book with the sinful state we're in.... see what I'm getting at?

Scott, you should put your left hand up to your ear when somebody tells you something, otherwise it will just be "in one ear and out the other" all over again.
I am seated in Heavenly places NOW, in Christ, and if you are "in Christ," then so are you.
But if you are not, that is if you think that Jesus didn't finish the work He came to do, then you are not "in Christ".
The Christian faith is founded upon the rock of Jesus, that we believe that He is the son of God, who gave His life for us, to pay for our sins and give us eternal life.
I actually believe that, if you don't have "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", (Collossians 1)
then you don't have eternal life.
On the day of judgement, and your name isn't found in the Lamb's book of life, then that's when you find out what the "Second death" means.
I don't believe that you will burn for eternity in the lake of fire, I think you will be terminated.
But on the other hand, those that HAVE received Christ now, and turn away to go back into continued sin, like a dog returns to his vomit, I believe they WILL be in that lake of fire forever, as they HAVE eternal life.
If Christ died, I consider myself dead, if He rose from the dead, I consider myself risen.
Romans 8
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

:cool:

[rhadsen]

If we are judged at the moment of death, what about the "Day of judgement",

Which is one of the reasons Pete, why 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a non-starter regarding purgatory. It's talking about the day of judgment - the great day of the Lord, not the day of our death. Have you noticed that neither of the folks who brought up 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7 as texts supporting purgatory can discuss either verse and tell us why, from the text itself, or it's literal or historical context these verses are most likely referring to purgatory?

I've asked Scott a couple of times to please work with the text and explain why he feels that it supports purgatory, but he hasn't answered yet. Maybe he hasn't seen my question. I'm hoping that he gets a chance to share how he has come up with his view.

Rob

[N0help4u]

Exactly, I have pointed out several times within the past few days that they are confusing the Judgment day of works and crowns with the Purgatory thing.

[cozyk]

AGREE with you, NOhelp4u.. Such an important part of not teaching falsely. Keeping Chirst Holy, and Above All Else believing in His worthyness in body and blood.

Bible Speak is so unclear to me. "believing his worthyness in body and blood." What in the world does that mean?

Isaiah 42:3A A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory

I don't get any of this. Makes no sense.

To My servant say's God: " I " will trim your wick so that "My" Light of Truth shines bright and "I" have victory.. Amen to that!

Okay?? :confused:

[Tj3]

Luther found a phrase that worked for him, and it works for me too -- "simul iustus et peccator," at the same time righteous and a sinner. Christ's righteousness has been lovingly wrapped around me, but not because of any merit of my own. As long as I live, I am caught in this world, guilty of wrongdoing, a sinner. I wake up each morning with a clean slate in front of me--and how long does that slate remain clean???? Until I get dressed, or maybe only until I stand up out of bed? Only "in Christ" and because of His work of redemption am I righteous and counted as one of God's children, and deserving of heaven.

Yes, and as scripture says, it is not our righteousness, but Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.

[tsila1777]

Peter Wilson,
This is very long, and in this case, my words are in red, but I give many Scriptures and I hope you and others will read it and then go and study for yourselves. I cannot put every Scripture in here, and I am not just putting Scripture together to “prove” my point of view. Take it for what it is worth to you.

I agree with just about everything you said.

You said: I don't believe that you will burn for eternity in the lake of fire, I think you will be terminated.

However, I believe that those who do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus will live forever in the lake of fire. That is why it is so important, so urgent that we spread the gospel through the whole world. Think about it: God gave His only Son; they rejected Him. God does not send them to Hell; He has done everything He can to save them. But they refused.

Eternal life, in this case, does not just mean to live forever. We were raised with Jesus, we have eternal life now.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 3:14-16 (New King James Version)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15: that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:24
Amplified Bible (AMP)
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternalAmplified Bible (AMP)
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the person whose ears are open to My words [who listens to My message] and believes and trusts in and clings to and relies on Him Who sent Me has (possesses now) eternal life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life. (So that when death and hell give up them that are in them…we will not be there)life. And he does not come into judgment [does not incur sentence of judgment, will not come under condemnation], but he has already passed over out of death into life. (So that when death and hell give up them that are in them…we will not be there)John 5:24 (King James Version) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 (King James Version) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

• King James Version (KJV) 1 John5:13
  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

• King James Version (KJV) 1 John5:13
  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have
  • King James Version (KJV) Rev. 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:(that is those of us who first believed…we are unique, a peculiar people unto God, there has never been another people like us, nor will ever be again.) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
  , and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We shall reign with Him a thousand years on earth. New Jerusalem is the Beloved City where Jesus shall rule the nations. We are not the dead; we are priests of God and of Christ.
deceive the nations

of the earth
Rev 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. That were deceived. which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: compassed the camp of the saints(us) about, and the beloved city
9And they went up on the breadth came down from God out of heaven, and (is this yet another resurrection? Who are the 'dead' here, I believe those who were alive after Christ died and denied Him.): and fire the dead, and devoured them.


10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
books
12And I saw another book, small and great, stand before God; and the and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. were opened: and the book of life was opened here to prove they did have a choice, that God is fair and just, and they will see our names there, those of us who tried to warn them. was opened, which is the book of life: (Revelation 20:13-15 (King James Version))(another resurrection,)
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (this is not us who believe on Jesus now, remember the second death has no power on us)

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus told us to rejoice that our names are written in the book of life.




[bbcode][/bbcode]
[bbcode][/bbcode]

[ScottRC]

Obviously you felt it supported purgatory, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up 1 Peter 1:7.

I'm not sure what your objection is about...

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It's simply an example of our faith being "tested by fire"... and reading this verse in the allegorical sense, I really don't know what point you are trying to make... maybe you believe I'm trying to offer each verse as a literal "proof text" for Purgatory... if so, please remember I'm not Protestant and don't have a "sola scriptura" theology. Our theology does not rely on individual "proof texts", but because of the polyvalent nature of the Bible, proper exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation using many verses and the historical teaching of the Christian faith.

[N0help4u]

So you are not saying that it is referring to purgatory?

[Tj3]

I'm not sure what your objection is about...

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It's simply an example of our faith being "tested by fire"... and reading this verse in the allegorical sense, I really don't know what point you are trying to make... maybe you believe I'm trying to offer each verse as a literal "proof text" for Purgatory...

Then if you agree that it is not purgatory, then it has no place in this discussion. In any case, being tested is definitely not purgatory. We have a great deal in scripture about our faith being tested, for example:

Heb 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
NKJV

Odd that this one speaks of faith being tested by fire (and it does not refer to after death), and your other verses speaks of works being burned by fire if they are not done for the Lord, but absolutely none say anything about men being burned by fire - except those who end up in the lake of fire/hell.

if so, please remember I'm not Protestant and don't have a "sola scriptura" theology.

I am not protestant but I do believe in the Biblical sola scriptura doctrine.

Our theology does not rely on individual "proof texts", but because of the polyvalent nature of the Bible, proper exegesis involves an extensive and critical interpretation using many verses and the historical teaching of the Christian faith.

Christian theology is based upon scripture.

[arcura]

tsila1777
Believe as you wish.
On my case I know that Purgatory exists.
It is my faith and the teaching of The Church that tell me so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[arcura]

Tj3,
Wrong again.
Posting that list of verses from the bible Does show that Purgatory exist and just because you hate Catholic teaching does nit change that fact one bit.
What your post does show is that you personally interpret the bible to say what you want it to say and not what it clearly dies say.
I have God's holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Lilmkiss]

All I am going to say to this is that the gulf he is talking about is about the rich man and pour man. The rich man had all the comforts of the earth and he did not believe in the coming of Christ yet the pour man with sores and boils begging him for money did believe in the coming of Jesus. Later on when both men where dead the rich man in Hades looked across the great gulf and saw the same man sleeping comfortably untroubled on the other side. This is where the first idea of pergitory came from. I hope this is an answer the that question. And lastly I want all of you that believe in pergitory to post the verses because I can tell you there is 0% proof in the bible to prove that Purgatory exists and again a nother question that has to be answered here.

The church has 0 power, except what God gives it and, if you read the bible, it says that the church is where 1 or more people are gathered in Gods name, and we have no athority to say who goes to hell or to heaven. So therefore the chruch has 0 power in this respect and again further proving that if God forbid Purgatory exists then, nothing we do here or others do for us would get us out any faster. It was just a way to suck people dry by unholy men in the catholic church plain and flat history read up on martin luther.

[Wondergirl]

Tj3,
Wrong again.
Posting that list of verses from the bible Does show that Purgatory exist and just because you hate Catholic teaching does nit change that fact one bit.
What your post does show is that you personally interpret the bible to say what you want it to say and not what it clearly dies say.
I have God's holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

C'mon, Fred. I am not a Catholic hater. There is no biblical support for Purgatory.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Please note that that was address ti Tj3 who is Tom Smith whose many negative posts and teachings about the Catholic Church show that he hates many of The Churches teachings.
And I beg to differ about the bible's indication that Purgatory does exist.
Several verses so indicate.
Yes the word Purgatory is not in the bible.
If you take the stand that Purgatory does not exist then there are thousands of words that are not in the bible and therefore do not exist.
Note that the word :"Wondergirl" is not in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[tsila1777]

tsila1777
Believe as you wish.
On my case I know that Purgatory exists.
It is my faith and the teaching of The Church that tell me so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear Arcura,

I understand that you believe what your church tells you to believe.


I believe what God and His Word tell me. That is why I believe that I am as righteous as I can be... I have been made the righteousness of God in the spirit man. How can I get any more righteous than that? That is not something that I did, but Christ did for me. It is done!

This body of flesh will not enter Heaven. But, my spirit, the real me, is complete in Jesus. He did all that was required to solve my sin problem. Christ in me, the hope of glory. His Blood was enough to cleanse me from all sin. It has never lost its power and it never will. It still cleanses me, my sins are forgiven, and God does not even remember them any more. He does remember His Son’s sacrifice for me.

The Name, the Blood, the sacrifice, the resurrection, the victory, the salvation is all by GRACE, it is a gift of God; even the faith to believe is a gift from God, all glory goes to God. There is nothing more for me to do except trust and believe.

That is what I believe. That is what the Word of God says. If my church told me the sky was green, I would not blindly follow that word. I do not worship or serve my church. I serve God.

If you believe that you are going to go to purgatory/hell, then maybe you will, dear one, but I have never read where anyone gets out again, except for judgment, and then they go back...

Peace and love in Christ

[pnkrkmama]

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

Purgatory is non-existant. It was created by the catholic church to get money from its partitioners. The preist claimed that they would get their relatives out of purgatory faster if they paid the church a certain amount of money. Purgatory is NOT biblical.

[tsila1777]

Arcura,
I read your post to wondergirl, cute, but your logic is off, that is beside the point.

Question, and I don't mean to piggyback, as I was once accused of doing... but where did you get the word purgatory from, since it is not in the Bible?

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Wrong again.
Posting that list of verses from the bible Does show that Purgatory exist and just because you hate Catholic teaching does nit change that fact one bit.
What your post does show is that you personally interpret the bible to say what you want it to say and not what it clearly dies say.
I have God's holy Church to guide me but you do not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

False accusations does nothing to enhance your position. I do not, and never have hated Catholics. What I do hate is false teachings which lead people astray.

Maybe if you dropped your bitterness towards mwe and others who disagree with you, we could have the opportunity to have constructive dialogue about our differences. As I have told you many times, I look forward to that day when you bury the hatchet.

The door remain open for you and will never close.

Tom

[Tj3]

C'mon, Fred. I am not a Catholic hater. There is no biblical support for Purgatory.

Wondergirl,

Fred has shown bitterness and hatred for me (and some others who disagree with him) for several years now. I have offered to have private discussions with him where we could discuss whatever it is that has caused that bitterness but he has refused every offer. Nonetheless, I continue to hope that Fred will one day accept my offer.

As I have told him many times, the door is always open and I will never close the door. No matter how Fred or anyone else might treat me, I will not hold a grudge, and always look forward to constructive discussions, and continue to hope that Fred and others will be with us in eternity praising the one true God.

Tom