[Tj3]

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Believe as you wish, but I am quite happy to stand on what God's word says. I do not plan to spend any length of time in fiery punishment. If you prefer a fiery punishment, then so be it. If you would prefer to have assurance of salvation from the fiery punishment, I'd be happy to share that with you.

[Peter Wilson]

Dear Arcura, once and for all, so many have been telling you that purgatory is a hoax, you and others try to prove it by the use of 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Again, for the umpteenth time, this verse is talking about our works, if they be worthy or not.
If we go about preaching about things that God will not honour, like the doctrine of Purgatory, then that will be burned up.
If we go about helping and loving others, these will remain.
Whenever we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, whether it is by following the scriptures or by Him speaking directly into our spirit, these works will stand.
Any works that we have done for profit, for pride, for self advancement, for praise of others, as a matter of fact, anything that wasn't done for the love of God and love for your neighbor, and not done from the heart, is burned up.
The fire that is mentioned here, deals with God's word, the one that comes from His mouth when He judges your works, here are a few examples of the words of God.

2 Samuel 22

7 In my distress I called to the LORD;
I called out to my God.
From his temple he heard my voice;
My cry came to his ears.

8 "The earth trembled and quaked,
The foundations of the heavens [c] shook;
They trembled because he was angry.

9 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.

10 He parted the heavens and came down;
Dark clouds were under his feet.

11 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
He soared on the wings of the wind.

12 He made darkness his canopy around him—
The dark rain clouds of the sky.

13 Out of the brightness of his presence
Bolts of lightning blazed forth.

14 The LORD thundered from heaven;
The voice of the Most High resounded.

15 He shot arrows and scattered the enemies ,
Bolts of lightning and routed them.

16 The valleys of the sea were exposed
And the foundations of the earth laid bare
At the rebuke of the LORD,
At the blast of breath from his nostrils.

Jeremiah 5

13 The prophets are but wind
And the word is not in them;
So let what they say be done to them."

14 Therefore this is what the LORD God Almighty says:
"Because the people have spoken these words,
I will make my words in your mouth a fire
And these people the wood it consumes.

Deuteronomy 4:11-13

11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Jeremiah 20

9 But if I say, "I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
Indeed, I cannot.

Jeremiah 23

25 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?
27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship.
28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD.
29 "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 "Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.


Hosea 6
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth;
my judgments flashed like lightning upon you.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
And acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.


Psalm 29

7 The voice of the LORD strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the LORD shakes the desert;
The LORD shakes the Desert of Kadesh.

9 The voice of the LORD twists the oaks [c]
And strips the forests bare.
And in his temple all cry, "Glory!"


When the Lord judges our works, it will have to judged against His word and by His word.
This is the true meaning of this scripture, not some weak link to an imagined netherworld of pain, torment and suffering for those that have put their trust in Jesus.
To say that Jesus death on the cross did not save us from the penalty for our sins, is to agree with the devil, therefore, it is against Christ.
I guess it is hard to understand that you are under a spirit of delusion, when there are so many in agreement with you.
You make a mockery of God's love, when you take the most loved scripture in the Bible and say that God's love is flawed, that His love includes terror, pain, torment, suffering, just to be made righteous.
I am flabbergasted at the use of some of the scriptures the Catholics use to give credibility to their argument.
It's an insult to my God and His word.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son.
If you are a father or mother, would you give the life of your child to die in the place of murders, thieves, adulterers etc.
If you were in this position, you would say, "Take my life not theirs".
For your love for your children is greater than the love for yourself.
How great then, was the love of the Father, to give the one He loved even more than Himself, to pay for our sins, and then we say, "not good enough God, I have to do my own works to get into Heaven"
We make the gift of God of none effect if we do this.
If I could lay down my own life to get you to accept the Grace of God, then I would.
You are so precious to God, he wants to love on you, not beat you up.
This is not His nature.
This is His nature,

Nehemiah 9
But You are a God of forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.

This does not sound like the ogre that the catholic church preaches.
Our God is a God of Love, He never changes.
Bless you.

[sndbay]

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

The difference is Tj3 has laid his life and faith in Christ. Tj3 and others here who believe as he does follow Christ. The veil was cut wide open by Christ. What was once is no more because of Chirst' blood.
You Fred, follow your church and their traditions as a path to Christ, needing your priest, along with traditions of man to reach salvation.

As in the temple there was a holy chamber in which only the priest could enter the sanctuary.
Ezekiel 44:11.. Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, [having] charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

However when Christ was on the cross this changed everything that was, because no more burnt offerings were needed. He died for us, and took power over the devil. The veil which only the priest could go through is now gone.

Hebrews 2: 9-14 .. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The holy chamber at that time was open to everyone, the veil was opened.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

My question to you Fred is, do you trust and believe in these scripture?

Tj3, I agree.. it won't let me give you green..

[rhadsen]

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ's Body and having thereby received God's supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

Scott RC,

We've already kicked around 1 Corinthians 3:15. Here, you are also appealing to 1 Peter 1:7 as a proof text for purgatory.

Here is the text from 1 Peter (NIV) in context:

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Looks to me like Peter is referring to trials that the believers are encountering here on the earth. Since he is writing to live persons, I don't understand how you can use a text about suffering in life as a Christian to support a belief in Purgatory - which according to your definition occurs after death. Do you agree that Peter is writing to live persons about events that "have come" which they "have had to suffer?"

If so, how does this text support the notion of purgatory as defined by ccc 1030?

Rob

[Peter Wilson]

ScottRC, If you had children, or if you have, and you loved them so much your heart would break if anything should happen to them.
What if you knew their was an enemy out to kill them, so you made a safe haven for them.
What if your beloved children made a mistake, no not one mistake, many mistakes, but then they had a change of heart and came to you and admitted to you that they messed up and that they were truly sorry that they not only hurt you by their disobedience, but let you down in your hope for them.
What if you forgave them and welcomed them back, not only into your home, but into your heart.
Would you then say to them,"I know that you are sorry for all the trouble you have caused, and I can see that you really want to change, and have changed from that selfish child that you were. I can see that you have a broken heart for the hurt you have caused me, and I forgive you completely, but because you still have a tendency for sin, that was in you when you were born, I am going to take you over to this red hot stove and hold your hand on it for 10 minutes, because I love you."
If you, or anybody did that to their child, they would be classed a monster and thrown into prison, where they belong.
How-ever, this is the way that you see God, only much, much worse, not the hand, but the whole body, and not for ten minutes, for many. Many years.
For God's sake, wake up to yourself, this is not the nature of God, this is the nature of the devil.
He came to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus came to give life and more abundantly.
God loves you, He is a good God not an evil tyrant.
Give Him the honour He deserves, stop believing the lies of the devil, and know the love of God in truth.

Romans 8

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Peter Wilson]

Dear tsila1777, absolutely, even as it says in Hebrews 12 -
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

I can see that you have mastered the discipline that you are under, even in suffering, you give glory to God.
My 7 yr old daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia last year, and even though I thought of myself as a mature Christian, I fell to pieces.
How-ever, through the strength of the love that was shown us, not only by the Church, but by our neighbors, my work mates and Jamies' school, we made it through.
I was blown away by the love and compassion shown by all.
It revived in me the spirit of mateship, that I thought was dead here in Australia.
It showed me that it wasn't that others had shut their hearts to me, quite the opposite, and I found that love can come from any quarter.
I saw love coming from Christians and non Christians, it was so refreshing for both, my wife and I.
It may seem odd to some, but I thank God that Jamie got leukemia, it changed my focus, I thought that what I believed was right, I was still going to Church, reading my Bible etc, but this just knocked me for six.
You don't realise how much you need God, until there is nowhere else to turn.
Suddenly, I had to seek the Lord in earnest, not passive prayers anymore, but with a hungry heart, wanting more and more of God.
Jamie, by God's grace, is doing fine, she is amazing the doctors, one of whom said to us after examining Jamie and looking at all the test results, "If any body saw these results and looked at you (Jamie), they would say that you have never had Leukemia!"
I thank God for His discipline, I needed it, and He knew just where to get my attention!
Bless you Tsila, I pray that the Lord will fill you with even greater wisdom and understanding in your knowledge of Him.
:) :)

[N0help4u]

ScottRC
How am I judging? How is my saying that any different than your claims that 'my interpretation' OR sola scriptura is wrong?

[ScottRC]

If so, how does this text support the notion of purgatory as defined by ccc 1030?

Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings... so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ScottRC, If you had children, or if you have, and you loved them so much your heart would break if anything should happen to them.

I have NO CLUE as to what the point of your post is...

It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory, so I'm at a loss at how to respond... nothing that you offered is contrary to Catholic teaching... so I can only assume that you just don't understand it and have projected your faulty understanding into the discussion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How am I judging? How is my saying that any different than your claims that 'my interpretation' OR sola scriptura is wrong?

I don't believe I even said you were "wrong" in the same way... I don't doubt your salvation because of what you believe... I'm not sure if you can say the same thing about me.

Once again... I couldn't care less if you remain a non-Catholic and continue to believe in sola scriptura... a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church... I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.

If you can't see the difference between a debate and judgement, then I can't help you understand.

[Tj3]

Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings...

Let's change the reference to "proof texts" and let's discuss scripture. What we are trying to establish is not p;roof texts as such but scriptural validation for your interpretation.

so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?

We should be looking for how scripture interprets scripture not personal interpretation.

a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church...

You are living on the edge, stepping outside of Roman Catholic teachings there!

"...we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Source: Roman Catholic Church Bull UNAM SANCTAM, November 18, 1302)

"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
(Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 816)

I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.

You have said that those who disagree with the Catholic teachings are stupid and ignorant. Is that better?

[ScottRC]

Additional help in understanding the Catholic teaching on Purgatory:

Purgatory

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory

Fr. Frank Sofie

And my favorite, a fairly complete Q&A on Purgatory from Jimmy Akin: How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

[Tj3]

Additional help in understanding the Catholic teaching on Purgatory:

Purgatory

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory

Fr. Frank Sofie

And my favorite, a fairly complete Q&A on Purgatory from Jimmy Akin: How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

We know well what the doctrine says - what we are seeking is scriptural validation.

[Wondergirl]

Additional help in understanding the Catholic teaching on Purgatory

I don't know where to begin! Let's start with this quote:

"Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification -- a purification -- of our natures."

Why? Jesus' death took care of all of our sins. Forever. Otherwise, his sacrifice wasn't quite "good enough."

[ScottRC]

Why? Jesus' death took care of all of our sins. Forever. Otherwise, his sacrifice wasn't quite "good enough."

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it... but I can assure you we don't believe Christ's sacrifice "wasn't quite "good enough".

I appreciate your input.

[Tj3]

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it... but I can assure you we don't believe Christ's sacrafice "wasn't quite "good enough".

I appreciate your input.

Then why did it fail to do what scripture says that it accomplished?

[Wondergirl]

Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you."

[ScottRC]

Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you."

Amen.

[Tj3]

Amen.

Then I presume that you concede that purgatory is at best un-necessary.

[ScottRC]

Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you."

I guess in addition to my "Amen" an explanation would help...

I had hoped people would take the time and effort to read the links I provided... the Akin paper is pretty helpful with this particular objection:

9. "It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ's work."

Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren't sufficient.

Wrong!

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!
- How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

Hope that helps.

[Tj3]

Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren't sufficient.

Wrong!

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

This references speaks of suffering while we are alive, and does not refer to what happens when we die:

Heb 12:11
11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
NKJV

Notice that this refers to suffering in the present?

None of this refers to purgatory, nor does it take away from the fact that Jesus both cleanses us from sin and imputes His righteousness to us. There is nothing more that needs to be done.

[Wondergirl]

"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."