[Tj3]

Fair enough.... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

The essentials of the Christian faith were known and grasped by the Apostles, and presented in God's word so that we too would have what it is that we need to know. Indeed, the essentials of the gospel of jesus were found in the Old Testament:

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Therefore if purgatory or any other doctrine (i.e. transubstantiation, papal infallibility, existence of a pope, calling Mary a co-redemptrix, etc) were part of the Christian faith, it would have been addressed in scripture. Anything which is not in agreement with scripture is not part of the Christian faith, and other non-essentials may exist which God chose not to reveal to us which we are in the flesh. In any case, scripture says not to go beyond what is written.

[Tj3]

Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else....???

Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?

[tsila1777]

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

[Tj3]

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy)

Where does scripture say that?

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

... but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

By Jesus, according to scripture, not through purgatory.

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.

1 Pet 1:7)

1 Peter 1:7-8
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV

Note that your faith is tested by fire. This is an example of how your faith is tested:

Heb 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
NKJV

Not in purgatory.

In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

Read the whole context:

1 John 1:7-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

1 John 1:8 is not speaking about in death, but note that 1 John 1:9 destroys the doctrine of purgatory.
In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

No, it says that sin cannot be forgiven after death. You apparently missed the "not". BTW, if you are assuming that because it referred to this sin as not being forgiven in death means that other sins can be, that is not a logical conclusion.

If your mechanic told you that the cylinder in your car is damaged so bad that it cannot be fixed, it does not mean that cylinders in other cars similar damaged can be fixed. This is a defined logic fallacy.

the topic here was sin against the Holy Spirit, and as we can see unless everything is nailed down people established new doctrines where scripture is silent. If Jesus had not been specific about it not being forgiven after death, someone would have come up with a doctrine saying that it can be forgiven after death, maybe even in purgatory.

The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.

I can point out the doctrine of trinity using the rules of logic, and going by what scripture does say, not by the absence of what it says, and going by what it explicitly says, and can prove the trinity in either the OT or NT (in fact it is more strongly stated in the OT), but you cannot do the same with purgatory.

[Tj3]

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

This could be seen two different ways. First, it could be seen as a special privilege given to the Apostles. If so, then that is a privilege which has gone away since scripture is clear that there have only been 12 Apostles, and there are no more today.

It could be seen as being common to all disciples, since it refers to disciples, not Apostles, in this passage, and if so, it would be a privilege given to all believers.

You are correct that it is not clear in the specifics, but I would suggest that the most likely explanation is that insofar as we are in harmony with the Holy Spirit, we will be acting in accordance with the will of the Spirit. In this case, it is not so much that these men could decide to forgive sins, but rather than these men insofar as they were submitted to the will of the Holy Spirit and spoke in accordance with the Holy Spirit (i.e. prophetically) were declaring the forgiveness of sins. This does not give any men (apostles or not) the right to make up new rules around the forgiveness of sin - that was decided already by God - so it has no relevance to the doctrine of purgatory.

[Tj3]

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

Good points.

This would also be contrary to scripture because through indulgences, it would be easier for the rich man to get to heaven than the poor man, simply by buying enough indulgences, or paying in advance for enough masses for the dead.

Jesus' view of how easy it was for money to get us to heaven is:

Luke 18:24-25
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
NKJV

Suggesting that money somehow is a substitute payment for sin, in my opinion, cheapens the immense and infinite value of the price paid by Jesus on the cross for our sin. We need to keep in mind also that everything that we own is not really ours in any case, but everything - all of it - belongs to God, therefore by trying to pay Him with what He rightly already owns further cheapens the value of His sacrifice on the cross.

[ScottRC]

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

[Tj3]

I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

I can see how one might argue it was to the apostles, but there is no indication whatsoever that this would apply to anyone else who followed after them since there only have been 12 Apostles. If you disagree, then show us from scripture where it expands its application beyond the Apostles.

[sndbay]

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

Your refer: this as proof of purgatory? {{{Rebuke your false teaching}}}

Mal 3:2-3 But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

This is proof of Christ !

[ScottRC]

Your refer: this as proof of purgatory?

Not "proof" of anything... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.

This is proof of Christ !

Okey dokey.

God bless you my friend.

[sndbay]

Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?

My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.

[ScottRC]

My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.

Are you referring to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

[sndbay]

John 20:22-24
As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone's sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for 'wrongs' they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

My opinion would be to try and understand what the disciples were seeing for the first time after seeing Christ on the cross. And to confirm that notion, Jesus shows them the signs of His last appearance by showing them His side and hands. Further more Jesus gives them the Spirit which grants them the ability to acknowledge His presence being real. The last verse was spoken by Jesus to assure them, that they themselves had nothing to fear in not believing what they had first thought in their hearts, but rather telling them Jesus found understanding in their fear and forgives them. Plus if they were in question of each others thoughts, Forgive one another. It is Christ that will judge our hearts.

I trust we must remember what the disciples were always taught in understanding that you must believe in Christ.. For a moment might they have thought their own heart had sinned by not believing it was He that stood before them.

Find comfort and rest in Christ, He is the Word of God.

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

Let's also note that Jesus was aware of everything before hand. He knew that even Thomas was next to come and doubt. Surely Christ would want the disciples to be forgiving to Thomas's doubts.

John:24:24-25 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

The depth of our sin is great, but the purity of our forgiveness thr Christ is greater

[sndbay]

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

Yes, I was refer: you and your previous post.

Posting #230

Not "proof" of anything.... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.

My reply is respect the Word of God.. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[ScottRC]

My reply is respect the Word of God .. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.

Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

[Tj3]

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

I notice that you did not answer the question. The way that you worded this, the truth could be buried somewhere in the scriptures, but the scripture may not be fully inspired by God.

[Tj3]

Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

If you are saying that everything comes down to "opinion" about scripture, then you would end up with postmodernism, not orthodox Christianity. Postmodernism being the belief that we can all just sit around, discuss our opinions and whatever comes out on top must be the truth.

There are some things in scripture which are not clear and others which are abundantly clear. Where it is clear, we must submit ourselves to what it says. Where it is not clear, we must be carefully about making it doctrinal. Where scripture is silent, we may speculate, but we must again not make our speculations (or traditions as the case may be) doctrinal.

[arcura]

Peter Wilson.
Purgatory is NOT hell.
All we know about Purgatory comes from a few verses in the bible.
Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.
1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)
So a person loses his/her sinful nature and is therefore saved and goes to heaven.
We do not know what a person in Purgatory goes through but I suspect that it is different for each person depending on his/her sins during moral life.
An elderly person I know who is now going through difficult health and other problems thinks that he may be going through a taste of Purgatory now because his conscience is giving him a thorough working over as the memories of his past are filling his mind.
Who knows, that may be a part of it.
But the fact remains (as the bible tells us) impurities are not allowed in heaven.
So if a person is to go there he/she most be pure or purified.
Forgiving sins is one thing but the nature of a person to have done those sins is another.
Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Purgatory is NOT hell.

No, Hell exists.

Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.

Jesus Himself purges the sins of those who are saved - no purgatory.

Heb 1:3-4
He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.

Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.

Not according to scripture.

Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

For those who are saved, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and 1 John 1:9 says that we are cleansed of all sins. That takes care of both sin and righteousness. Nothing else is left. Jesus finished the work on the cross.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)