[BarbaraJ]

Water at our 40 year old condo townhouse development is rust stained and we are spending about $10,000 a year on our end of useful life galvanized pipes for large leak repairs. Is PVC the best replacement product? If so are their any specifications we should look for? If not, what is recommended?

[Milo Dolezal]

Before you do anything, call your plumbing inspector and ask him if you can use PVC for your water main. In my region PVC is not allowed - especially on commercial structures.

Anyway, you should use properly sized, type "L" copper. Some cities may even require type "K" copper. Your inspector will tell you what grade of material is required.

If you are allowed to use PVC than use schedule 80 PVC. Don't settle for schedule 40.

[speedball1]

Good morning Barbara,
In my area we have used Schedule 40 PVC Pipe as a water service for years without a single complaint. Milo works under the UPC code which has all sorts of crazy amendments such as, no wet vents, forcing you to install a counter top air gap in place of the more reliable high loops and now mandating expensive copper in place of tested and proven PVC. Unless you live under UPC you had best ignore Milos code recommendations, which will cost you much more, and stay with the rest of the 90% of the nation. Sorry Milo, but growler and I have already been down this road. He works under UPC also. Regards, Tom

[Milo Dolezal]

Thank you for your output, Tom. As always, it is greatly appreciated...

Here are my two cents: I think So.California plumbing Code is one of the most progressive Plumbing Codes in the Country. Also, it is one of the strictest Codes I have ever worked under. Yes, they make you to work with copper instead of PVC in commercial buildings or mandate Air-Gaps for dishwashers. But if you look at it with critical eye than you realize that So.Cal Plumbing Code makes lots of sense. It minimizes health hazards, looks after your safety, calls for presence of various materials to protect your investment, as well as wants your plumbing system to work as best as possible.

Every plumber, who worked on the East Cost, then in the South, and then in So.California has the luxury of comparing various Plumbing Codes allowing him/her to make his/her own conclusions about validity of Plumbing Codes across the country.

I have no other way but to believe that you are the best, and the most experienced plumber there is. Also, I believe that you always have the absolutely best advice to offer. But in this particular case - you are wrong. It is important to stay open-minded and offer the best. You have to able to grow - not to remain stuck in the 60's somewhere in rural heartland. Every plumber knows benefits of such a mandated devices as are Air-Gaps or use of Copper over PVC in commercial applications. Every plumber also knows that while stack-vents perform quite well in some parts of the country - presence of individual, dedicated plumbing vents make your house plumbing system work better.

I think suggesting to people that it is OK to install schedule 40 PVC as their main water supply for their commercial structure is incorrect advice. I would rather prefer to see Barbara installing new galvanized pipe - rather than schedule 40 PVC. But I am sure, Barbara will do her homework herself and will not rely on East Coast / West Coast plumbers to advise her on this issue. She will phone her inspector with her inquiry and will find out exactly what is, and what is not, allowed in her area. I am also sure she will share with us what her Inspector had to say...

Wishing you a productive day..

[speedball1]

I think So.California plumbing Code is one of the most progressive Plumbing Codes in the Country. Also, it is one of the strictest Codes I have ever worked under

In place of "strictest" let's replace it with "restrictive" and you'd be more correect. Let's look at the facts. What does UPC have against PVC water services? PVC Schedule#40 has these bursting points. 3/4"= 480 PSI, 1"=450 and 1 1/2=330 PSI. No problem there that I can see. Schedule #80 will give even higher bursting points. While copper can develop pinhole leaks after some time in acidic soil or with aggressive water while PVC will not. I'd say that was a plus for Plastic and a minus for copper.
Now let's look at the costs that UPC intends to charge as per against the rest of the country.
Scrap copper's going for $3.00 per pound. Type "L" copper pipe runs, 3/4" = $6.99 per foot. 1"= $8.99, 1 1/4"=11.99 and 1 1/2"= #14.99 per foot. "K" type will cost even higher.
Now let's take a peek at Schedule#40 PVC prices per foot. 3/4"= $0.68, 1"= $1.00 and 1 1/2"= $1.57 per foot. Can you say,"NO BRAINER?

I would rather prefer to see Barbara installing new galvanized pipe - rather than schedule 40 PVC.

Now THAT'S going to take some "splaining"!

I have no other way but to believe that you are the best, and the most experienced plumber there is. Also, I believe that you always have the absolutely best advice to offer.You're wrong Milo. I make mistakes along with the best of them! But in this particular case - you are wrong. It is important to stay open-minded and offer the best. You have to able to grow - not to remain stuck in the 60's somewhere in rural heartland. Every plumber knows benefits of such a mandated devices as are Air-Gaps or use of Copper over PVC in commercial applications. Every plumber also knows that while stack-vents perform quite well in some parts of the country - presence of individual, dedicated plumbing vents make you house plumbing system work better. And if that were so ALL our codes would be the same

But you're correct. Barbara will check and hopefully get back to us. Until then I'm reminding people that UPC, 1) takes more material , 2) costs more and 3), recommends Using a mechanical device that can fail in place of a unmechanical one that can not. You think that your code is

I think So.California plumbing Code is one of the most progressive Plumbing Codes in the Country. Also, it is one of the strictest Codes I have ever worked under

I have to go along with the rest of the 90% of the country and use just plain good sense. And if that leaves me

stuck in the 60's somewhere in rural heartland.

then so be it. But One last thought, Milo, Iwas under the impression that Barbara was talking about a galvanized water service and that's how I responded. If we're talking about inside mains then you're entirely correct. Copper should be ran in the building main. However I'll go to the mat with you if you're saying that PVC shouldn't be used for a water service. Milo, I sure appreciate the courtesy you've shown in replying. You just got to be a nicer guy then I am! You have a great day. Tom

[mya-lim]

Water at our 40 year old condo townhouse development is rust stained and we are spending about $10,000 a year on our end of useful life galvanized pipes for large leak repairs. Is PVC the best replacement product? If so are their any specifications we should look for? If not, what is recommended?

It depends on
PVC can be used for drinking system, drainage system and others.
and the price is cheap in market, but it not enough safe and health for people.
Becuase PVC pipe mainly made from the "Trichloroethylene" , it the period of process, the plastic will be easy decomposited, melting, so it is necessary to add a stabilizing agent. the stabilizing agent applyed to PVC because of low prices and excellent performance.
As a result of this stalility contains a lot of the heavy metals lead.

When in the course of water. The lead will be out , and direct result of the heavy metal contamination of drinking water.

So I prefer to recommend PP-R, PEX, or Pex-al-Pex pipe.

[hkstroud]

Mya-lym

What is the source of your information?

[speedball1]

PVC can be used for drinking system, drainage system and others.
And the price is cheap in market, but it not enough safe and health for people.
Because PVC pipe mainly made from the "Trichloroethylene" , it the period of process, the plastic will be easy decomposed, melting, so it is necessary to add a stabilizing agent. The stabilizing agent applied to PVC because of low prices and excellent performance.
As a result of this stalility contains a lot of the heavy metals lead.

Gee! And here I always thought PVC was made of Poly Vinyl Chloride. Along with Herald, I too would like the source of your information. We have houses piped in PVC and CPVC. Should we go back, tear out the pipes and repipe with copper? Did the industry put out a warning that hasn't reached us yet?
Are the hundreds of homes and condo buildings that we installed PVC water services at risk and will this be a "shot in the arm" for the plumbing industry when we hire extra labor to go back and replace all those services?
Inquiring minds want to know! Regards, Tom

[mya-lim]

To hkstrond

Whatever , it is the fact.
The longer you use PVC, the longer you will injured, that is why I recommed to apply
PP-R, PEX, PEX-AL-PEX pipe.

[mya-lim]

To speedball
Which country are you from?
You are right.
But now more and more family are installing the PP-R, PEX, PEX-AL-PEX pipe instead of PVC, just like europe, america country, and demand on large quantity.
So people shoud know more about this information, however some contractors only prefer to profits and interest, and ingore the potential danger to us, because this injuiry will be come ture after 10-20 years and happen to people.

[mya-lim]

Although it is fact , it can not change in a second or a month, replace all the pvc pipe and tell all the people. They will know, but someone can not accept.
What we can do is that, be rational.
Now, the plumbing industry is changing step by step. At least I think so.

[hkstroud]

Again what is the source of your information.

Are you a physicist, a chemical engineer, a medical physican? Do you have any research information you can cite. Any statics, any publications? Where are you getting your information.

[mya-lim]

I am very sorry for my mistake,
PVC is made from Polychloroprene, but it must add "Trichloroethylene" into PVC
The chemical compound 1,1,1-trichloroethane is a chlorinated hydrocarbon that was until recently widely used as an industrial solvent. Other names for it include methyl chloroform, chlorothene, and the trade names Solvent 111 and Genklene (used by ICI).

Although not as toxic as many similar compounds, inhaled or ingested 1,1,1-trichloroethane does act as a central nervous system depressant and can cause effects similar to those of intoxication, including dizziness, confusion, and in sufficiently high concentrations, unconsciousness and death.

[speedball1]

What is PVC?
PVC stands for the type of material from which it was made. The acronym PVC can be seen throughout our website in front of piping and fittings such as PVC pipe Schedule-40, PVC fittings sch-40, PVC pipe schedule-80 or PVC fittings Schedule-80, and more.

Chemical Makeup

PVC is made by the chemical polymerization of vinyl chloride as seen above. 57% of its mass is chlorine, making it requires less crude oil to produce than many plastics. This makes PVC a more environmentally friendly material.

PVC Pipes
One of PVC's most common uses is in piping. PVC pipes have light weight, low reactivity, and high strength. Due to these favorable properties, PVC pipes make up 66% of the US pipe market for water distribution and 75% of the sanitary sewer pipe applications1. Despite PVC's obvious advantages, metal piping is preferred for applications that require very high strength or ease of disconnection.

Health and Safety
Many PVC products contain chemical additives meant to change the properties of PVC. Some products have been known to leach these additives into their surroundings. Of particular concern are popular additives that soften the PVC called plasticizers. Plasticizers are not typically used in PVC pipe unless special piping is required to operate under stress at temperatures below freezing2.

In manufacturing, a rare liver cancer can be developed from long term exposure to PVC's originating monomer, vinyl chloride. However, health risks associated with manufacturing PVC pipe have been mostly eliminated since the PVC industry's adoption of a "closed loop" polymerization process in the 1970's
Sources
Wikipedia.org - Polyvinyl chloride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Madison Group.com - http://www.madisongroup.com/failure/...eanalysis.html


One more time, Mya-lin, Could you give us the source of your information? Your signature "Underfloor heating, radiant heating expert " cries out for a explanation. Are you in th trades?