[N0help4u]

He repented and was forgiven. But he had to pay for the effects of his sin.

That is exactly what does not make sense.
If Jesus died for our sins
We repented of our sins
We had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

[Tj3]

The only way you can make that understanding out of this verse is to take it out of Scripture all together.

Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?

However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse.

Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.

Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him.

Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.

Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us.

Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.

What you should do is answer the questions I asked you.

How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

[disccat]

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory. (It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them) to help instill fear and raise revenue. Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

[N0help4u]

Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses

[N0help4u]

Okay maybe you could explain the difference between the judgment day for believers and purgatory and how they relate to each other.

From everything I read I just can't see it. To me
Purgatory is saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not good enough to satisfy the demands and payment for sin. Purgatory must satisfy part of the payment for sins through suffering after death. That is a works salvation, which makes it a totally false salvation.

Do Catholics still have to pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory? If they don't why has that changed?
Did the Catholic saints have to go through purgatory?
Is the length of time in purgatory longer for people that have more sins?
What is the longest and what is the shortest that a person spends in purgatory?

[De Maria]

That is exactly what does not make sense.

So you must see in order to believe? Did you not quote to me this verse:
"Lean not on your own understanding"?

If Jesus died for our sins

He did.

we repented of our sins

I have. I hope you have as well.

we had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

We did? Are you sure? Then you owe nothing in repayment for God's love?

Romans 13 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another. For he that loveth his neighbour, hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

Even the Jews knew that they had unknown faults:
Psalms 18 13 Who can understand sins? from my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord:

WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

That is true. Jesus did finish. But you misunderstood what He finished.

But Scripture is clear. By dying on the Cross He gave us an example to follow:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.


Jesus didn't suffer and die so that we wouldn't suffer and die. Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death would be meritorious in the sight of God. Just as He was baptized so that we would be baptized.

Do we no longer die because He died? Yes we die. And if we die in Christ we also rise in Him.

Do we no longer suffer? Yes we suffer. And if we suffer with Him we will be glorified with Him.

But nothing impure will enter heaven. How many of us have been perfectly purified on this earth before we die? Therefore, God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in His Fire so that we may enter heaven. God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in the Blood of the Lamb so that we may enter heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?
How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

I have. I hope you have as well.
That is a non answer.

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!?
That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

[De Maria]

Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?

No.

Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.

Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.

There is very little difference. But in David's case, Scripture is explicit:

2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.


That is the effect of David's sin.

Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.

You'll have to show me where Scripture says that.

How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

I must not have seen them. Point to them or deal with them again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory.

Nor does it use the word Trinity.

(It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church

So was the word Trinity, Incarnation, and others.

during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them)

There is actually a great deal of light in them for those who see that during that time, the Catholic Church was the light of the world. Untiring in bringing the light of Christ to the ends of the earth.

to help instill fear and raise revenue.

Typical anti-Catholic bigotry. Since you can't engage in a sensible religious and Scriptural discussion, you resort to spreading lies.

Please, if you want to have a polite discussion, provide the details for these accusations. Otherwise admit that you have no idea what you are talking about. The only fear which the Church instilled throughout the ages was the "fear of God" which is the beginning of wisdom. And the only revenues they collected were the tithes which were used to build temples to God most high and to help the poor.

Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

I have already handled these objections to Catholic Teaching. Please refer to message #38. Please review that message and address it. We can continue from there:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...on#post1171619

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?

Frequently, in common speech, people say, "I see!" to mean "I understand".

It is in that context that I used the statement "must you see to believe?" In other words, must you understand in order to believe?

How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

Because you said:

That is exactly what does not make sense.

That is a non answer.

There was no question to answer. I was simply breaking down your response point by point.

So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!? That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

Where did you get that?

Jesus certainly was sacrificed for our sins. But Jesus did not suffer so that we shouldn't.

Scripture is clear, if we don't suffer for our sins and for our fellow man and for the Gospel, we are not children of God:

Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

Now, is chastisement punishment for sin or not?

If it is then Scripture is clear that we suffer for our sins.

Oh, and I notice that you always claim that your beliefs must be backed up by Scripture. Yet I seem to be the only one producing Scripture in our exchanges.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

[N0help4u]

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
Why is that?

[sndbay]

DeMaria, Are you somehow saying the authority of the church here on earth somehow can help us in paying back for our penance?

I feel we can expect to be given a lesson in teaching from the Father when we make the wrong choices on our path in life. And that we are told to rejoice in His teaching.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Proverbs 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

[Tj3]

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

[Tj3]

No.

Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin. The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

[De Maria]

Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

Where and when does He cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin.

We do. Thanks be to God, Jesus died for our sins so that we could pay the price for our sins.

Again, lets look at the case of the child who breaks the neighbors window. You have to pay the price for the window because the child has no money of his own. Do you let the child go unpunished?

No, the child must now pay you for the price of the window or at least suffer some consequences. Am I right?

The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

No. The doctrine of purgatory applies the merits of the Jesus' sacrifice directly on our sins. Since at this point, we can no longer make satisfaction on our own. It is the Father making payment for the sins which we didn't have the wherewithal to pay ourselves.

And this is clearly evident when St. Paul says, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ., Obviously, Christ left something for us to do. His suffering was WANTING. And St. Paul suffered to make up for those wantings. And this is an example for you to follow:

1 Corinthians 11 1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree. And if works of iniquity are being burned away, then the soul is being purified.

I hope that answers your question. Please answer mine. What are works of iniquity to you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

Not at all Tom.

First, Scripture says that:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Who do you think is testing your works? Who do you think I believe is purifying our soul? Certainly it isn't a real fire in an actual stove. It is God!

Therefore, this verse explains it all very well.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

But if not, let me give you a bit of background. What are the Seraphim? The burning ones. Why are they burning? Because they are close to God.

It is God, the Consuming Fire who is burning with love for us. It is into this Fire that we who are going to Heaven will be thrust. But we won't be burned. We will be like the Seraphim:

Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

But those who are imperfectly pure will suffer loss, but they will be saved:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

And those who have hated God all their lives and want nothing to do with Him will suffer His presence anyway. Where would they go?

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are;....

Psalms 138 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc..... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
why is that?

He does. But you simply don't recognize it.

[N0help4u]

That is not what I meant I meant the teachings we believe from our church beliefs and the doctrines we follow.

What are the works of iniquities are sin --which is separate from good works
Works of straw are what I explained are good works that you do to please God that do not please him.


Quote: De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.

-----
You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree.
NO I said that Jesus sacrifice cleanses us from all sin.