[Wondergirl]

lifestyle choice

Most of the time it's not a choice. If it is, when did you choose to be heterosexual?

And it's not a "lifestyle." The rich and famous have lifestyles.

[erin7799]

Everything we do is by choice. Every time I've been hit on by a woman and I turned her down I was making a choice. Just because we feel a certain way doesn't mean that we act on our feelings. The majority of the gay people that I know and/or have known in my life have all been straight before they "turned" gay. Now this it out of their mouths not my own. It is absolutely a lifestyle. Ask my gay friends. They'll be the first to tell you. We've had this conversation before. And if it's not a lifestyle would you say it's a "culture"?

[Wondergirl]

Everything we do is by choice. Every time I've been hit on by a woman and I turned her down I was making a choice.

So you've chosen to be straight? You aren't hotwired to be straight? If you make a choice, that means you are at first undecided about at least two things, in this case gay or straight, but straight has won out (so far). Maybe next week you will choose to be gay.

When someone hits on you, you aren't choosing to be gay or not; you are avoiding a certain behavior.

[Wondergirl]

The majority of the gay people that I know and/or have known in my life have all been straight before they "turned" gay.

Interesting friends you have. My gay friends always knew they were attracted to the same gender, but society said no to that, so for a long time they hid how they felt.

would you say it's a "culture"?

What is being a heterosexual? A culture?

[margog85]

Erin7799-
I appreciate your posts, and since you said you didn't mean offense by what you said, I will not take it in that way. I suppose it is hard for someone who is not gay to really understand the importance of things like a gay pride parade to the gay community.

You said that you don't have a 'straight pride parade'- but, from my perspective, every day is straight pride day- you can be with your boyfriend or husband and not have people look at you like you're disgusting- you're, most of the time, typically surrounded by people who are straight like you.

I don't have that kind of life.

If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, no one even turns their heads. I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend, and I'm a spectacle.

You were raised in a world where being straight was 'normal' and so was I. For you, that was no big deal, because you were straight. For me, it was a big deal, because I felt like I just never quite fit right. I couldn't really put it together at an early age- any feelings I had I dismissed, and tried to live 'normally'- but that wasn't 'normal' for me. I was a triangle trying to fit myself into a square hole- so I went through much of my life before I came out as a 'straight' girl- everyone is presumed 'straight' by default- and so since that's the label that we're given, that's the label we attempt to embrace before we realize that it's not who we are. Maybe that's what your gay friends mean- I know I have gay friends who say that they 'turned' gay jokingly- so you might want to clarify that.

Everyone has a different experience, of course. But the majority are probably not prone to saying or feeling that they just decided to be gay, or that they used to be totally straight and one day just changed their minds. Again, being straight, you may not understand that- but I assure you, that is 99% of the time the reality.

As far as your statement that you don't have a 'straight' pride parade, because if you did you'd be considered 'racist'--- that's because straights are not and never have been an oppressed group. When you spend your life trying to be someone you're not, and find people criticizing and abandoning you because of who you are, you really do look forward to the boost of confidence that you get from being around other people like you, and being proud of who you are, regardless of what other people think. It's like... like you've been caged in all your life, and every day you have to be cautious of who's around you, who 'knows' about you, what other people are thinking or saying behind your back--- and it's not just the petty stuff that everyone else deals with, because I know everyone has to deal with judgment to some degree on a daily basis. But it's a judgment not of what you wear, who you talk to, what your hair looks like, how many pounds you need to lose- it's a judgment of an unchangeable part of WHO YOU ARE, and it hurts on a level that can't really be explained to people who haven't experienced it.

And then you have this one day every year, in some places a whole week, where you can let your hair down, relax, and celebrate- be who you are and be proud of who you are, when you spent so much of your life trying to hide it and convince people that you're 'not-so-bad'- a day where you can feel confident that you're just as good as anybody else, and just as deserving of respect. Where you can hold hands with the person you love and share your life with without being singled out as 'one-of-them-gay-couples'- cause they're everywhere.

I'm at work and I'm sure my thoughts are scattered, and I'm not sure if I addressed everything you mentioned in your posts. But please let me know if that helps clarify a bit- I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Peace.

[Credendovidis]

What is it that I DO that makes me intolerant?

See your own post #31 and my post #34. If that was not clear to you, nothing is...

:rolleyes:

·

[erin7799]

Margog85- I don't ever mean to offend or hurt anyone and my actions in my life certainly suggest just that because I feel so badly if I do. When your on a board like this it's hard to "talk" to people because you can't hear a tone of voice and things that are being typed can be misleading in how we're trying to get them to come across. I try to understand. Just because I don't think it's right doesn't necessarily mean that I am going to snub my nose at you or ridicule you in public or private. Sometimes it gets so frustrating when you deal with prejudice on any level. I've dealt with it quite a bit like I said for being white, straight and woman. I get frustrated when situations occur like when my brother who is a "genius" was passed over an internship in college because he was white. They flat out told him that they needed so many "non-white" students. And even though he was far more qualified he didn't get the position. But they've made it in this country that no one is equal. Everyone wants special treatment and those who work hard and do what they need to do in life get pooped on. You're right. We all go through things and no... I can't imagine walking down the street and being gawked at for holding my loved ones hand. Funny thing is I would never gawk and make faces because it's none of my business. That's where I feel as though my actions do not qualify me for being intolerant. Do what you do, just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am going to be hateful towards you. Nothing that I show, say or do on the outside makes me intolerant of you being gay. Only one time ever and that was on here did I ever come forward and finally say... "Hey... Why is it this way?" Because I opened up about it doesn't make me intolerant. I guess when people do things like the parades and such it's a huge attention getting deal. And there's nothing peaceful about it. You know there's going to be some kind of backlash from it. It's just the way people are. Someone has to stir the pot. I was just wondering why do certain people get to celebrate and others would be looked at as being racist against others if they did so? Because no matter what anyone says about that how would you feel? What if someone did organize a hetero parade? You'd assume there was some malicious intent behind it. Or if someone had a white pride parade... and I'm not talking kkk or anything like that. Just a happy celebration of who we are. People wouldn't stand for that. What I was trying to say was that people have a tendency to segregate themselves. Gay, straight, black, white, hispanic. We do. How can everyone live together in peace? In my silly mind I guess I always thought that people should just be happy, no one should hurt anyone and that's just the way it should be. Like I said, I've never brought this up before because the LAST thing I want to do is hurt you or anyone else. I knew that this discussion would get some people bashing me or telling me that I was wrong but like I said before we could go in circles about this forever. Someone will always think the other is wrong. Religion, Politics and now homosexuality. Things that you just can't argue. It never ends. I was told that something I said was violent when if you would've heard how it was coming out in my head, there was nothing violent about it. That's just it. You assume that we shouldn't celebrate who we are because we're straight and that's "normal". A lot of times people in this country bend over backwards to make sure that they don't offend "minorities". Unless that is, if you're white or christian. I've seen on t.v. where mexicans and black people can make fun of white people and call them names because haha that's funny. Yet at the same time a white person could never, ever make fun for the sake of t.v. because it would be racist and someone at some point they would have to come out with a public apology because they offeded someone. I just don't understand why things are OK for some people and not others. That's all. But I liked getting a message directly from you because I thought it was you who I was talking to you anyway not realizing I was going to hear from everyone else. Like I said I had never done this before. I am just going to have to leave it as no... I'll never understand. And some of these people will never understand me and what it is that I am tryint to say or the questions that I've had. And that's fine. I was just thinking of this lady that I used to work with. She was amazing. She was a lesbian and I loved her! She could quote the bible like nobodies business. She was always there for me and she gave the best hugs! Just an example of someone I knew and I never looked down on her because she had a girlfriend. I loved her for her. I don't know. Just because I don't understand doesn't make me a bad person. Doesn't make me hateful, intolerant or discriminating. It's just that I don't get it.

[simoneaugie]

margog85, I wanted to thank you. Perhaps you wrote your last post while distracted at work but it came out as clear as bell ringing. For the first time I may understand what it's like to be gay. I grew up the victim of political abuse. Your explanation of the ostracism of being "different," and having to hide who and what you are explained how I've always felt. Thank You for putting it into words.

erin7799, you have so much balance and compassion for other humans. Keep it up.

[inthebox]

Erin7799-
You said that you don't have a 'straight pride parade'- but, from my perspective, every day is straight pride day- you can be with your boyfriend or husband and not have people look at you like you're disgusting- you're, most of the time, typically surrounded by people who are straight like you.

I don't have that kind of life.

If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, no one even turns their heads. I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend, and I'm a spectacle.

You were raised in a world where being straight was 'normal' and so was I. For you, that was no big deal, because you were straight. For me, it was a big deal, because I felt like I just never quite fit right. I couldn't really put it together at an early age- any feelings I had I dismissed, and tried to live 'normally'- but that wasn't 'normal' for me. I was a triangle trying to fit myself into a square hole- so I went through much of my life before I came out as a 'straight' girl- everyone is presumed 'straight' by default- and so since that's the label that we're given, that's the label we attempt to embrace before we realize that it's not who we are. Maybe that's what your gay friends mean- I know I have gay friends who say that they 'turned' gay jokingly- so you might want to clarify that.

Everyone has a different experience, of course. But the majority are probably not prone to saying or feeling that they just decided to be gay, or that they used to be totally straight and one day just changed their minds. Again, being straight, you may not understand that- but I assure you, that is 99% of the time the reality.

As far as your statement that you don't have a 'straight' pride parade, because if you did you'd be considered 'racist'--- that's because straights are not and never have been an oppressed group. When you spend your life trying to be someone you're not, and find people criticizing and abandoning you because of who you are, you really do look forward to the boost of confidence that you get from being around other people like you, and being proud of who you are, regardless of what other people think. It's like... like you've been caged in all your life, and every day you have to be cautious of who's around you, who 'knows' about you, what other people are thinking or saying behind your back--- and it's not just the petty stuff that everyone else deals with, because I know everyone has to deal with judgment to some degree on a daily basis. But it's a judgment not of what you wear, who you talk to, what your hair looks like, how many pounds you need to lose- it's a judgment of an unchangeable part of WHO YOU ARE, and it hurts on a level that can't really be explained to people who haven't experienced it.

And then you have this one day every year, in some places a whole week, where you can let your hair down, relax, and celebrate- be who you are and be proud of who you are, when you spent so much of your life trying to hide it and convince people that you're 'not-so-bad'- a day where you can feel confident that you're just as good as anybody else, and just as deserving of respect. Where you can hold hands with the person you love and share your life with without being singled out as 'one-of-them-gay-couples'- cause they're everywhere.

I'm at work and I'm sure my thoughts are scattered, and I'm not sure if I addressed everything you mentioned in your posts. But please let me know if that helps clarify a bit- I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Peace.

Margog:

Thank you for expressing how you feel, it helps me see your point of view. ;)

[ordinaryguy]

I grew up the victim of political abuse.

Simone--
I'm interested in what this means, if you don't mind sharing. I grew up in a very insular fundamentalist Christian subculture that fostered a sense of being separate and different, and a longing to be persecuted for it, though in actuality we weren't. Ordinary people just thought we were kind of weird, which of course we were. I still remember the sense of relief I felt when it dawned on me that there's really no US and THEM, that we're all just people.

[shatteredsoul]

I think many people make choices in life. That is, to get married, go to college, have kids and raise a family. People also make a choice to give in to their feelings towards someone of the same sex, or not. THAT doesn't mean that the attraction is a choice, but how we respond to it is. I think many people struggle with wanting a "regular life" and to be like everyone else. Some people want a traditional family and maybe don't want to give in to their sexual desires. BUT the desire isn't a choice, it just is. Thus, you cannot judge what someone feels, even if you have an opinion on how they live that out.
Being gay isn't something anyone wants to be or chooses.. unless they are just wanting to shock and entice people.. MOST of the time it is a realization of an attraction and desire to be with someone of the same sex and not being sure how to frame that. It takes some people their whole lives of being married and having kids, and then realizing they are not being true to themselves and they must be free of the chains they feel are keeping them from the life they DESIRE..
Look, my mom was a nun, married to my dad for twelve years and THEN came out as a gay women. It was the 80's and it wasn't easy to deal with, admit or acknowledge at that time. I don't think anyone could have TURNED her gay, but maybe made her realize that SHE couldn't deny who she was anymore, despite her CAtholic conservative parents, or her angry and embarrassed teenage children. IT sometimes overtakes you and you must let it out and face the music.
IT Isn't a choice to be gay, but I think living out the gay lifestyle is choice and not an easy one. There is still prejudiced people and ways that they are treated unfairly. This is why people feel the need to speak out, be proud and shout it in the streets.

Yes it makes some uncomfortable. HOWEVER, there is not the same need to feel validated for heterosexuals as there is for those that are homosexual. Heterosexuality and patriarchy has dominated and controlled this society, as well as many others throughout history and anything veering from that is seen as inappropriate, unnecessary and to many, unethical and immoral. THAT IS how we have kept the nuclear family together, by supporting and protecting marriage through religion and patriarchal laws. THat is the truth whether you agree with it or like it isn't really the issue.
So, do I think Homosexuality is a choice? NO.. But living it out as your truth and your difference.. ABSOLUTELY IS.

[erin7799]

I'm not going to argue with anyone about how they feel. Some subjects can't be touched. It's a never ending discussion. But that certainly doesn't mean I don't like homosexuals as people. I just don't agree with it. That's my opinion, you have yours and that's what makes us all so great. If we all agreed all the time life would be boring. More peaceful, certainly. But boring. Thank you all for your arguments, your insight and margog85... keep on keepin' on. You're a person that everyone could learn something from.
God Bless :)

[Wondergirl]

I just don't agree with it.

It's nothing to agree or disagree with. No one is taking votes on it. It just is.

[Wondergirl]

If heterosexuals "turned" to be homosexual, then they all can easily return to heterosexuality. Why don't they?

[De Maria]

I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

I've seen gay pride parades before and it is the gays who are offensively dressed (if they are dressed at all) and it is the gays who carry offensive signs with offensive literature.

While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs?

The question can easily be asked of you. Why do you feel that gays may impose their beliefs on others?

If following a parade with megaphones and signs is imposition of beliefs, what is the parade itself?

Seems to me that you are simply angered by freedom of expression when the ideas being expressed are not those with which you agree.

If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay...

The rest of your post can be ignored. It is simply a rant from someone who wants all people to agree with her views.

If you live in the USA, the Constitution gives you the right to express what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong.

If you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so. Simply hold your belief.

As for me, I believe it is wrong. And I reserve the right to say so whenever I wish. It is my right guaranteed by the Constitution.

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

No you don't. The largest part of your message is simply a rant against those who don't believe what you believe. And we've had this discussion before anyway.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

If heterosexuals "turned" to be homosexual, then they all can easily return to heterosexuality. Why don't they?

Why would they ?

:rolleyes:

·

[erin7799]

I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?

De Maria : Thank You! You said what I was trying to say. People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc... is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's OK to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.

[Wondergirl]

allowing them to run the city for a day.

Who runs the city for the other 364 days?

[ChihuahuaMomma]

I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?

De Maria : Thank You! You said what I was trying to say. People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc...is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's ok to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.

You do realize that women DON'T need men to have children anymore. Just their seed. And vice versa. There's artificial insimination, there's surrogates, and adoption.

[erin7799]

I realize this. But the WOMAN still needs the MAN in order to do this. You know what I'm saying. The woman cannot ]on her own have a child. And vice versa. It's artificially done. Not naturally.

And everyone shares the city for the other 364.