[Tuscany]

Get real ...i was talking to EX..not you. dare me? don't dare me..i don't care..this was addressed to HIM. I am not judging anyone....if he is upset...let HIM speak. K?

Just as an FYI when you post something on a public board anyone can comment. Synnen had every right to comment on your post, you made it a public post. Just so you are aware.

[classyT]

Thank for the info Tuscany! It was STILL addressed to Excon... and I am STILL entitled to MY opinion of HIS post... that is all I am saying. I was never going to report anyone and HE knows that... just my opinion of how Christains are treated.. and hmmm? I rest my case.

[Synnen]

Funny, I could say the same thing about Christians.

None of the NON-Christians jumped all over my response. Just a Christian.

Funny how non-Christians are treated, hmmm?

[WVHiflyer]

[QUOTE=sassyT]

Well duh, the framers of the constitution were predominantly Christians.


Then you should be saying "unfortunately the Country was founded by Christians"
Of the 55 colonial delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, 52 were members of

Christian churches.

Many of them, deists, belonged or attended because they would have been vilified had they not. T Jefferson declared himself a Christian with qualifications - only in the sense that he believed in what Jesus taught about how humans should behave towards one another.

there is no doubt about it; America was founded by Christians and the U. S. Constitution was based upon the eternal laws of God as revealed in the Bible. To think that the Ten Commandments are not historically relevant to the foundations of the American legal system is preposterous.

Nowhere in the US Constitution is God, god, a creator or any supernatural agent mentioned.

The principles in the Constitution were more largely based on the ideas of the Enlightenment and the 'rights of man' - those that humans have simply because they exist as thinking beings. Any of the supposed 10 C relevant to the foundations of US legal system were because they were universal, not something solely Judeo-Christian. The US has even declared itself to be NOT a Christian nation:

The Treaty of Tripoli (1797) contains the following Article XI:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen and as the said State have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. [emphasis added]

[classyT]

Synnen,

I didn't jump on anything you had to say regarding homosexuals... and all Christians are NOT created equal... but they are treated the same.. bummer

[sassyT]

Hello again, sassy:

Cool. Jews like faygeles.

excon

I do too.. so what's your point?

[KISS]

Based on what I learned in school, people's sexual preference isn't quite decided until late teens. In fact people can be experimental at this time and experiment with members of the same sex.

In class, we learned that people are born in a continuum of sexual preference from none, to total same sex to completely bi to complete heterosexual.

Furthermore, what sex is a hermapherdite which is a person that has both external organs. What is a she male. Female appearance with male sexual organs and what are those that have SRS or (sexual re-assignment surgery).

I doub't you can put any though into "why homosexuality is wrong" without addressing the above mentioned issues.

I won't. It's food for thought.

[sassyT]

I DARE you to report Excon for that. Seriously. Christians say things like that all the time, and most of the time it's just discussed further (as here) rather than being reported. Most of us non-Christians realize that of all religions, Christians are the most fervent about "knowing" that they're right or wrong--and all because THEIR holy book wasn't burned along with them when other religions got touchy about it.

Most Witches and other pagans lost their history and their grimoires when the Christians took ONE LINE from the Bible and went after witches and wise women with a vengeance--because they were different. Should we go back to THOSE days, too? I mean, the Bible says "thou shall not suffer a witch to live". Should I start watching my back, since obviously witchcraft is wrong according to the Bible? Just like, according to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong?

How DOES God think then? Has He appointed YOU to tell us? I mean, if He wants me to change my thinking, maybe He should pop down here and explain what he has against witches, other than that they don't worship Him. I mean, several hundred years of my "sisters" being burned is pretty drastic, don't you think? And if He really felt that way, and allowed it to go on that long--why is it okay to stop now, if you TRULY believe?

THAT is what drives me crazy about the whole Christian Principles thing: the fact that all you have to do is wait around 100 years or so, and a new interpretation of the Bible will prevail, and Christian Principles will change again.

As far as I know, Jesus said to spread the word about him, not to force others to believe in him. If I don't believe in him, I don't believe in his rules, and I should not have to live by them. Christian Principles, my right butt cheek. If we were living by Christian principles in this country, there would be no unwed mothers, no divorce, no hungry, no poor, no hate, people would forgive, there would be no extra-marital affairs, there wouldn't be pornography, etc.

And there's no way that you can tell me that with the majority of this country being Christian that the minority of other religions is causing ALL of these problems.

Look to yourself, first. If you have sinned, you repent, and don't sin again, right? Well, what is intolerance but hatred in the form of fear? You don't have to LIKE what someone else does, you just have to NOT DO IT YOURSELF. And you have to forgive those who trespass against you, or against god. It is not your place to judge them or hate them or belittle them, according to the Bible. It's your place to pray for them and forgive them and still treat them with compassion and love. GOD will judge, says the Bible.

So...if you don't agree with homosexuality--GREAT! Don't do it! If you don't want gay marriage, then go to a church that will not marry gays--but what the church and state do are completely separate. If you don't want your child adopted by gays--GREAT! You can choose your adoptive parents as a birthparent most times. But--because this country is based on the fact that all men are equal, you can not STOP gays from marrying, or adopting, or existing!

You sound so frustrated but I wonder why are you are torturing yourself on a religious forum anyway?
Maybe you so called atheist should just stay away from RELIGIOUS forums.. lol.. gees.. Why is that you come on religious forums and open up a discussion and then take offense at what we "religious" people have to say. If you are really wanting responses that agree with your beliefs and doctrines then why don't you spend more time on other discussion forum and just avoid this religious one.
Seriously.. I find it really ironic that athiests spend so much of their time and effort on religious forums. It seems to me that you just come here to harrasse believers about what they believe in an effort to promote your own beliefs. I think I speak for most believers here when I say we are not interested in athiestic beliefs, if we were we would be on an athiestic forum somewhere. So please if you want to have a civil debate about issues on a religious forum, be prepared to deal a difference in opinion in civil and respectful manner.

[sassyT]

Without using religion, citing scripture, or bringing god into the equation, please explain why you believe that homosexuality is wrong, why gays should not have the right to marry, and what kind of impact you feel homosexuality has on society.

This question should be on a non-religious forum.

[NeedKarma]

maybe you so called athiest should just stay away from RELIGIOUS forums..

Don't you get it? Atheism IS a religion. They have every right to be here and show you the one and only TRUTH.

[Synnen]

You sound so frustrated but i wonder why are you are torturing yourself on a religious forum anyway?
maybe you so called athiest should just stay away from RELIGIOUS forums.. lol .. gees.. Why is that you come on religious forums and open up a discussion and then take offense at what we "religious" people have to say. If you are really wanting responses that agree with your beliefs and doctrines then why dont you spend more time on other discussion forum and just avoid this religous one.
seriously.. i find it really ironic that athiests spend so much of their time and effort on religious forums. It seems to me that you just come here to harrasse believers about what they believe in an effort to promote your own beliefs. I think i speak for most believers here when i say we are not interested in athiestic beliefs, if we were we would be on an athiestic forum somewhere. So plse if you want to have a civil debate about issues on a religious forum, be prepared to deal a difference in opinion in civil and respectful manner.

What part of my earlier posts didn't you get? I never ever once said I was an atheist.

I'm a FIRM believer in Wicca. The goddess and the god, as well as the ancients and the elements, have my absolute faith.

I just don't worship YOUR god.

However, since it's "religious discussions" not "Christian discussions", and I have a religion, I believe that puts me on equal footing with you.

I'm not interested in converting to your Christian beliefs, either, but at least I have enough respect for them to KNOW what you believe. You don't have a CLUE about my religion, though.

I believe I have been civil--please point out to me where I have not used logical arguments to counter yours.

Again... just because I'm not of YOUR religion doesn't mean I don't have one of my own. And since you know so little about it, I've apparently been pushing mine less than you've pushed your own.

[shatteredsoul]

I am going to answer this question without referring to religion to answer it, as the question politely requests.

WHEN I WAS 12 YEARS OLD, MY MOTHER WHO WAS A NUN AND A VIRGIN BEFORE MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN, DIVORCED MY FATHER AND MOVED IN WITH A WOMAN. NEEDLESS TO SAY, IT WAS A LIFECHANGING EXPERIENCE. SHE NEVER EXPLICITLY SAID SHE WAS A LESBIAN, BUT HER ACTIONS AND LIFESTYLE SHOWED ME THAT IS WHAT SHE WAS.
THIS TOOK MANY YEARS FOR ME TO PROCESS AND UNDERSTAND AND AT 36, THIS IS MY CONCLUSION:
FIRST off, I am not here to tell you whether homosexuality is wrong because I really don't know. I can only tell you what I feel. I know as a young girl, sexuality isn't something that I understood and now in my thirties I am just mastering my own comfort level with it.
Second, most people don't have any control over what they feel or what they desire, they do however, have control over how they act upon it. There are many reasons someone would deny their feelings of homosexuality, but not as many to become open and honest about them. I don't think you can find fault or judgement about how someone feels about another person, what comes into question is the choices and the lifestyle they make based on those feelings.
As a society, we have rules of law, issues of morality and ethics, as well as a standard of expectations of how to live and procreate. We have an understanding of religion and family that is intricately intertwined for many reasons. In order to preserve marriage and family, there must be the notion of keeping relationships heterosexual, it is critical to the survival as the patriarchal society that has dominated most cultures and societies worldwide, throughout history.

WITH THAT being said, it has NEVER stopped people from engaging in homosexual acts or relationships. For the most part, people go against everything they have ever been taught at school, home or in their church, when acting out those relationships. I don' t think the desire to be sexual with someone of the same sex, can be condemned, it however just a feeling and therefore, it is something that cannot be deemed "WRONG". What may be perceived as wrong, is going against the grain of society's expectations of how one should engage in appropriate relationships and act them out.

MAYBE to some it is wrong to live with someone of the same sex, or to have children together, but what I think is wrong is for people who are in heterosexual relationships that are unfaithful, unethical and abusive, to judge those that live different than themselves. It is hippocritical to judge others when those that judge do not live up to the standards that they hold others accountable to.
Moreover, homosexual relationships aren't easy to understand and they do have consequences that affect many different facets of their lives. Families are often ripped apart due to the realization of the gay lifestyle and they sometimes are ostracized from their family, profession and friends. NO ONE chooses to lose everything based upon how they feel about someone, sometimes the realization of being true to oneself overcomes the desire to be accepted by family, friends and their career. NOT only does one risk everything to become honest about their homosexual feelings, they often spend the rest of their life justifying their decisions, their lifestyle and their acknowledgement of who they are.

NO I don't think homosexuality is wrong, it is a choice to live out a lifestyle that coincides with their feelings of love for another person, that not everyone will agree with. It is inevitable. IT is unstoppable. NOT to be compared with choosing to kill, steal or abuse people, it is choosing to accept their feelings and hoping others will too. DO I understand the choice to live a gay lifestyle, no I don't. BUT that is because I am not gay. HOWEVER, I understand the ramifications of being in a relationship that is a lie because that is what society expects of you.

My mother has chosen to live out a gay lifestyle based upon how she FEELS about women. Does that mean I agree with it? I don't have to agree with it but I do have to love and respect her as my mother, because that is who she is. I was angry with her for many years, blamed her for breaking up our family and hurting my dad. BUT ULTIMATELY, her choice that I didn't understand then, has changed my outlook on life. I have become a more aware individual of things I don't understand, and accepting of that which I don't personally agree with. The only one I am responsible for is myself, my actions and my lifestyle. I cannot speak against, or judge the way another person chooses to live.

THAT is my truth and the way that I see it. I would rather live my life accepting others for who they are, not for who they love. I hope I can be true to myself and understand others who must do the same in their own life, in their way.. it isn't for me to judge, only to learn from.

I believe we were given free will for a reason, to use it, learn from it and grow to more spiritually evolved human beings. I don't understand homosexuality and I don't think I ever will, but I will never say it is wrong because who your heart loves isn't wrong, it just is. What you do with it may affect others, may have negative consequences and may create division and discord, but that doesn't mean being honest with who you are is wrong. WE tend to bash what we don't understand, instead of simply loving others who are different than ourselves. Disfunctional heterosexual relationships are wrong but they are supported because that is what we are taught to do. What we need to do is teach our children to accept that everyone is different and so are their choices, and sometimes our feelings have a way of affecting those choices.

[JudyKayTee]

I don't. But I know that the odds are that is the case.

How do I know? I worked at a large Cancer hospital for 10 years. I was aware of the makeup of the population of that hospital.

During that time, I also had information on many hospitals in my city. The percentages were the same for aids patients.

I no longer work in hospitals. But I have not heard that the percentages have changed.

Interesting statistics from the CDC:

AIDS cases reported in 2006
Male to male transmission 43.5%
Needle transmission 18%
Male to male plus needle transmission 5%
Heterosexual 32%
Other 1%

So it's 43.5% homosexual transmission; 56.6% other



All AIDS cases reported through 2006
Male to male transmission 48%
Injectable drug/needle transmission 25%
Male to male plus needle transmission 7%
Heterosexual 17.8%
Other 2%

48% homosexual; 52% other

Don't know whose argument these statistics support but found them interesting.

[JudyKayTee]

Obviously you're carrying a lot of baggage. I can only change my responses within the alloted time to edit. I believe everyone has that ability. Other than that I don't have the authority to change anyone's responses.

Did I say you changed anyone's responses but your own?

[JudyKayTee]

I am a man.

That is where you are wrong. We don't have to worry about having children because we would love to have more children. So our sex is pure enjoyment.

This is ENTIRELY too much information!

[sassyT]

Interesting statistics from the CDC:

AIDS cases reported in 2006
Male to male transmission 43.5%
Needle transmission 18%
Male to male plus needle transmission 5%
Heterosexual 32%
Other 1%

So it's 43.5% homosexual transmission; 56.6% other



All AIDS cases reported through 2006
Male to male transmission 48%
Injectable drug/needle transmission 25%
Male to male plus needle transmission 7%
Heterosexual 17.8%
Other 2%

48% homosexual; 52% other

Don't know whose argument these statistics support but found them interesting.

Yes, But was you are neglecting to consider is the fact that Homosexual consist of only 2% of the population and yet account for 48% of the transmissions. Scary

[De Maria]

Did I say you changed anyone's responses but your own?

You said I had changed mine. But you quoted me in your objection to my message. And the quote of my words in your message was exactly as I said it in my message.

[De Maria]

This is ENTIRELY too much information!

I said that in response to someone else. No one is forcing you to read my messages.

[JudyKayTee]

I said that in response to someone else. No one is forcing you to read my messages.

I know but it's like watching a train wreck - can't tear my eyes away.

[De Maria]

My apologies

No problem.

That is where you are wrong about me. We do not have to worry about any of those things. If we are blessed with a child (which I honestly hope we are) then that child will have been conceived in love. I do have to worry about pills. Fertility drugs- but I hope and pray that they work- alas that is another discussion.

Actually it is. Therefore so was your original objection.

Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but I am a Catholic. Married in a Catholic Church and attend mass on a weekly basis. That being said I understand the bible is a piece of literary work and open to interpretation.

Sounds as though you have a lot to learn about your Catholic faith:

According to Catholic Church teaching, Scripture is the Word of God:
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 81

And the Catholic Church teaches that Scripture must be interpreted according to the Tradition of the Church:

113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2

Heck this Sunday our Father gave a homily on a gospel reading and I got something totally different out of it then he did. Does that make my interpretation wrong. Nope...

Yes.

I also believe that I should love and accept others just as Jesus did.

Jesus didn't accept anyone who did not repent of their sins.

This thread has had many different directions. This is just one of them.

Yeah, I'm just making a point. Atheists usually come to religious forum with an agenda and they don't care about usurping the threads for that agenda which is usually anti-Christian.

Actually my Aunt was once married, her husband died at a young age. My Aunt was at the time pregnant. She decided not to lie to herself anymore and started dating her partner. They have been together ever since. It is the only family my cousin has ever known.

And that proves that same sex unions do not conceive children.

They also ask you if you are feeling sick, if you recently have gotten a tattoo, or have any other diseases. I know this for a fact as my school just hosted a Red Cross Blood Drive.

I didn't say that there weren't other ways to catch the disease. But look at the statistics which someone posted in blue (JudyKay?) and notice the largest group suffering from AIDS.

Sincerely,

De Maria