[WVHiflyer]

Freedom of religion is a Christian Principle. All nations that are predominantly Christian excersise freedom of religion. Bible teaches free will and to love others. All the so called "Chrisitans" who were doing the above you mentioned were acting out on their own evil because they did not get out of the Bible.

On the contrary. All those atrocities and the repression were taken, by Christians, from their Bibles - the same one you use (tho some of the earlier ones were the Bible before the King James version). Or are you saying that the Old Testament isn't part of your Bible? And bigotry against wiccans and atheists by Christians is alive and well today.

[WVHiflyer]

[

lol You wish Credo... Dont you know that Jesus Christ is God? Believe me When they say one nation under God they mean Jehovah. go back and read the Quotes form the founding fathers. When they talk about God, they are talking about Jehovah God not just some unknown diety..

"Jehova God" (?) Only Christians think Jehovah and Jesus are one. Unfortunately, it was the Christians who convinced Pres Eisenhower to add "under God" to the pledge. They were not being generous of thought, they were staking a claim. Wrongly.

[sassyT]

On the contrary. All those atrocities and the repression were taken, by Christians, from their Bibles - the same one you use (tho some of the earlier ones were the Bible before the King James version). Or are you saying that the Old Testament isn't part of your Bible? And bigotry against wiccans and atheists by Christians is alive and well today.

Please don't just make unsupported claims, please give me a verse from either the Old or the New testament that mandates or gives Christians the instruction to hate, kill or harm witches, Jews, Ahtiest?

[Synnen]

Exodus 22:18

[WVHiflyer]

A standing ovation for Synn! Well said, well thought out, beautifully written.

Ditto

[De Maria]

If you would quote her entire question the answer to that would be clear. The question was :

"Without using religion, citing scripture, or bringing god into the equation, please explain why you believe that homosexuality is wrong, why gays should not have the right to marry, and what kind of impact you feel homosexuality has on society."

There clearly is asked why you BELIEVE the way you do. And with belief being the one and only basis for religion ......

:D :D :D :D :D

Obviously you can't handle the arguments I provided or you would have tried.

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

"Jehova God" (?) Only Christians think Jehovah and Jesus are one.

Well duh, the framers of the constitution were predominantly Christians.

Unfortunately, it was the Christians who convinced Pres Eisenhower to add "under God" to the pledge. They were not being generous of thought, they were staking a claim. Wrongly.

Then you should be saying "unfortunately the Country was founded by Christians"
Of the 55 colonial delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, 52 were members of Christian churches.
James Madison said..
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

There is no doubt about it; America was founded by Christians and the U. S. Constitution was based upon the eternal laws of God as revealed in the Bible. To think that the Ten Commandments are not historically relevant to the foundations of the American legal system is preposterous.

[Tuscany]

Obviously you can't handle the arguments I provided or you would have tried.

The arguments that you provided were that the gay community spreads AIDS (a myth) and that sex is made strictly for the means of reproduction.

AIDS can be found in every community gay straight or otherwise. Your justification shows ingnorance to the facts found since the early 80's.

I applaud you if you only have sex as a means to reproduce. Personally, I use sex as an expression of love. THe child that I conceive is a child conceived in that love. Sex is so much more than a way to reproduce.

[De Maria]

I suppose you would still call AIDS by its old religiously-bigoted term GIRD (or was it GRID?).

I never heard of that term. And the OP has forbidden religious reasons so keep your anti-religious bigotry to yourself.

No type of sexual union "brings" AIDS.

Are you certain?

It is a communicable disease that can be transmitted to another through sex

So sexual union does bring "aids".

(but not only sex) - the sharing of bodily fluids, no matter who is doing the sharing.

And which group is predominantly afflicted by this disease?

... HIV/AIDS has predominantly afflicted specific population groups (i.e.,. Male homosexuals and intravenous drug users)...
Fletcher.tufts.edu/praxis/archives/xxii/gonzalez.pdf

Sincerely,

De Maria

[sassyT]

Exodus 22:18

According to versions of the Bible in the original languages in pre-King James versions, it translates more closely to "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". Poisoning was a huge problem at the time. King James was a huge believer in the occult. The play Macbeth was written specifically for him by Shakespeare based on James's interests. In the King James version, the word was translated inadvertently to "witch".


Do you have any that say we should kill or harm athiests or Jews?

[De Maria]

And again, the children argument comes up.

You are responding to the first post I made on this topic. Did someone else bring it up or are you referring to an age old argument?

So... those couples who are married but NOT trying for children should NOT be having sex, right?

Margo asked for nonreligious posts. But you seem to want to drag me into a religious discussion.

Correct. For Catholic couples, they vow to have children when they get married and they should do their best to keep that vow.

If you are not Catholic, you obviously live according to your own mores.

Seriously--if you really feel that marriage is for children, then all couples who do not WANT children should be denied marriage,

That is correct. Matrimony is the office of motherhood. If someone wants to be married but does not want children they are not permitted to be married in the Catholic Church.

Again, you are dragging this into a religious discussion. Is that what you want?

and all those who HAVE children should be forced to marry, right?

You are putting words in my mouth again. I still remember our last discussions. Please stick to what I've said. Not your projections upon me. Read my posts and respond to the words thereon.

And birth control should be thrown out the window, since sex is ONLY for children, and if you're not trying to have a child, you shouldn't be having sex--married or not.

And sex should then stop as soon as either half of the couple's sex organs no longer work, making that little blue pill worthless, since most men who need it are with women past childbearing age anyway. And menopause would be the beginning of the end for all couples. Should one couple lose their capacity for having children (emergency hysterectomy, or something like that), then the couple no longer should have sex, and should make SURE of that by sleeping in separate bedrooms, since marriage is ONLY for children, and well... if you can't have kids, you shouldn't be married.

If you want to have a non religious discussion with me on whether homosexuality is wrong, please respond to what I actually said in my last post on this thread.

If you want to debate Christian or Catholic doctrine on the matter of marriage and children, please start another thread.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Hello again, De Maria:

OMG! Who can possibly argue with ignorance of this magnitude????

excon

All you have to do is walk into the HIV/AIDS wing of any hospital. There's no arguing the majority of the population therein.

But you aren't interested in intelligent discussion. That's why I rarely respond to your posts excon.

[NeedKarma]

All you have to do is walk into the HIV/AIDS wing of any hospital. There's no arguing the majority of the population therein.

How do you know if that AIDS patient at the hospital is gay?

[Tuscany]

How do you know if that AIDS patient at the hospital is gay?

Oh come on NH you know that you can JUST TELL when someone is gay. They have that "I am gay" vibe. :):)

[De Maria]

I guess you missed the last round or you wouldn't be surprised. "People like me" don't believe in marriage - other people in that class are Attorneys. Attorneys don't believe in marriage either.

That's why I've never been married. Oh, no, wait, I'm wrong. I have.

Also beware - the poster is an expert at posting, waiting for your response, changing the original post - so you're talking to a ghost.

Obviously you're carrying a lot of baggage. I can only change my responses within the alloted time to edit. I believe everyone has that ability. Other than that I don't have the authority to change anyone's responses.

[De Maria]

Wow you are one strong willed woman

I am a man.

to only have sex when you wish to procreate. No sex for the pure of enjoyment of sex for you.

That is where you are wrong. We don't have to worry about having children because we would love to have more children. So our sex is pure enjoyment.

On the other hand, you have to worry about condoms, about pills and about whether they have worked. So it is you that worries, not we.

I am glad that I did not marry my husband for the pure reason of having children. I am glad that I married my husband because he is my best friend, when children come into the picture it will be because our relationship is strong and whole. NOT because we got married. I could have easily had a baby before we were married...

That is wonderful for you. Obviously you either practice a different religion than I or you don't practice a religion which considers sex as a holy interaction between man and wife open to life.

But what does any of this have to do with the OP? Isn't this OP about homosexuality and the nonreligious reasons it is wrong?

You are wrong- same sex unions can have children. My aunt does...

Do you mean by artificial means or what?

Oh good lord you have to be kidding me. Can you honestly believe this? Have you done any research on AIDS and HIV? That myth was dispelled DECADES ago!

No it wasn't. Even today, everyone who goes to give blood is asked if they have come in contact with a homosexual before so doing? Why? Because homosexuals are prone to carry the disease.

[De Maria]

How do you know if that AIDS patient at the hospital is gay?

I don't. But I know that the odds are that is the case.

How do I know? I worked at a large Cancer hospital for 10 years. I was aware of the makeup of the population of that hospital.

During that time, I also had information on many hospitals in my city. The percentages were the same for aids patients.

I no longer work in hospitals. But I have not heard that the percentages have changed.

[Tuscany]

I am a man..

My apologies

That is where you are wrong. We don't have to worry about having children because we would love to have more children. So our sex is pure enjoyment.

On the other hand, you have to worry about condoms, about pills and about whether or not they have worked. So it is you that worries, not we...

That is where you are wrong about me. We do not have to worry about any of those things. If we are blessed with a child (which I honestly hope we are) then that child will have been conceived in love. I do have to worry about pills. Fertility drugs- but I hope and pray that they work- alas that is another discussion.

That is wonderful for you. Obviously you either practice a different religion than I or you don't practice a religion which considers sex as a holy interaction between man and wife open to life.

Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but I am a Catholic. Married in a Catholic Church and attend mass on a weekly basis. That being said I understand the bible is a piece of literary work and open to interpretation. Heck this Sunday our Father gave a homily on a gospel reading and I got something totally different out of it then he did. Does that make my interpretation wrong. Nope...

I also believe that I should love and accept others just as Jesus did.

But what does any of this have to do with the OP? Isn't this OP about homosexuality and the nonreligious reasons why it is wrong?

This thread has had many different directions. This is just one of them.

Do you mean by artificial means or what??

Actually my Aunt was once married, her husband died at a young age. My Aunt was at the time pregnant. She decided not to lie to herself anymore and started dating her partner. They have been together ever since. It is the only family my cousin has ever known.

No it wasn't. Even today, everyone who goes to give blood is asked if they have come in contact with a homosexual before so doing? Why? Because homosexuals are prone to carry the disease.

They also ask you if you are feeling sick, if you recently have gotten a tattoo, or have any other diseases. I know this for a fact as my school just hosted a Red Cross Blood Drive.

[classyT]

I DARE you to report Excon for that. Seriously. Christians say things like that all the time, and most of the time it's just discussed further (as here) rather than being reported. Most of us non-Christians realize that of all religions, Christians are the most fervent about "knowing" that they're right or wrong--and all because THEIR holy book wasn't burned along with them when other religions got touchy about it.

Most Witches and other pagans lost their history and their grimoires when the Christians took ONE LINE from the Bible and went after witches and wise women with a vengeance--because they were different. Should we go back to THOSE days, too? I mean, the Bible says "thou shall not suffer a witch to live". Should I start watching my back, since obviously witchcraft is wrong according to the Bible? Just like, according to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong?

How DOES God think then? Has He appointed YOU to tell us? I mean, if He wants me to change my thinking, maybe He should pop down here and explain what he has against witches, other than that they don't worship Him. I mean, several hundred years of my "sisters" being burned is pretty drastic, don't you think? And if He really felt that way, and allowed it to go on that long--why is it okay to stop now, if you TRULY believe?

THAT is what drives me crazy about the whole Christian Principles thing: the fact that all you have to do is wait around 100 years or so, and a new interpretation of the Bible will prevail, and Christian Principles will change again.

As far as I know, Jesus said to spread the word about him, not to force others to believe in him. If I don't believe in him, I don't believe in his rules, and I should not have to live by them. Christian Principles, my right butt cheek. If we were living by Christian principles in this country, there would be no unwed mothers, no divorce, no hungry, no poor, no hate, people would forgive, there would be no extra-marital affairs, there wouldn't be pornography, etc.

And there's no way that you can tell me that with the majority of this country being Christian that the minority of other religions is causing ALL of these problems.

Look to yourself, first. If you have sinned, you repent, and don't sin again, right? Well, what is intolerance but hatred in the form of fear? You don't have to LIKE what someone else does, you just have to NOT DO IT YOURSELF. And you have to forgive those who trespass against you, or against god. It is not your place to judge them or hate them or belittle them, according to the Bible. It's your place to pray for them and forgive them and still treat them with compassion and love. GOD will judge, says the Bible.

So...if you don't agree with homosexuality--GREAT! Don't do it! If you don't want gay marriage, then go to a church that will not marry gays--but what the church and state do are completely separate. If you don't want your child adopted by gays--GREAT! You can choose your adoptive parents as a birthparent most times. But--because this country is based on the fact that all men are equal, you can not STOP gays from marrying, or adopting, or existing!

Get real... I was talking to EX.. not you. Dare me? Don't dare me.. I don't care.. this was addressed to HIM. I am not judging anyone... if he is upset... let HIM speak. K?

[Synnen]

De Maria,

You came to this conversation late.

By the time YOU popped in here, we'd already covered a lot of the points you brought up again (like the procreation bit), and have continued the discussion down several veins, including those of religion and government.

Those of us non-Christians talking about religion now are responding to points made by Christians, and are basically just pointing out the flaws in those arguments.

I don't, by the way, worry about sex. I'd LOVE to have a child, and haven't used birth control in YEARS. Of course, I also am not a Christian, so do not have to live with that god's precepts of what sex is for (reproduction) and have always just been able to enjoy sex.