[JoeCanada76]

What about the american money. In God We Trust. Is not America founded on Christian principles. Well marriage is a spiritual and religion based communion between one female, and one male. So there is nothing that can change that. There is no grey area here. Marriage is an institution set up through the principles that are religion based. Marriage is for a man and women. Not the same sex. That is always the case and will never change.

I am not against gays, I believe we all have a right to live the way each individual wants to live but as far as having the right to get married. That is a right that they do not have and should never have. They can be together, they can live their lives as they want and be treated like we all want to be treated but marriage is not negotiable.

[WVHiflyer]

What about the american money. In God We Trust. Is not America founded on Christian principles.

That motto was added in the 1950s (it's also when 'under God' was added to the Pledge). Before the religious decided to start the myth in earnest that this was a Christian nation, the country's motto was e pluribus unum. Since that changed, we haven't been...

This country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, there was nothing 'Christian' about it.

[Synnen]

That motto was added in the 1950s (it's also when 'under God' was added to the Pledge). Before the religious decided to start the myth in earnest that this was a Christian nation, the country's motto was e pluribus unum. Since that changed, we haven't been....

This country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, there was nothing 'Christian' about it.

I looked this up before I found it already posted--nice post, WVHF. I did find out, though, that "In God We Trust" started appearing on coins in the 1860s, which is still several decades after the founding of this country.

Common sense about the greater good is REFLECTED in Christian principles. Just because this country was founded on common sense (like--honor your parents, don't kill people, don't steal, do unto others as they'd do unto you), doesn't mean it was founded as a CHRISTIAN country. In fact, the founding fathers deliberately did NOT make this a Christian country, but one where ALL religion would be welcome.

So--our laws are based on the greater good, not on Christian principles.

Granted, this is from Wiki, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but Jefferson was actually AGAINST the Bible and religion being used in politics

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as some of the OTHER founding fathers are concerned--well, some of them WERE good Christians, of various denominations, but some of them were VERY outspoken against religion in general, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

So--don't tell me that our country was founded on Christianity. It wasn't. The Christian principles used were the same basic principles found in most religions all over the world.

I believe in the Constitution more than I believe in the Bible, and even THAT has been amended to account for the greater good of this country, and of the equality of ALL people in this country. Blacks and women were once thought (and there were supporting Bible stories!) to be less than men, and had fewer freedoms and privileges because of it. Our country is progressive enough to realize that change MUST be made to assure that "All men are created equal", and therefore have equal rights and privileges.

[Credendovidis]

Crede: I don't think you need to point that out. I think it's quite obvious what my beliefs are according to what I post. That's why I post comments, to let others know what I believe.

So you THINK that. No problem with that. But I disagree with the conclusion you draw. Because there is no objective supporting evidence for what you BELIEVE, so i.e. you post what YOU believe, and not what IS !
The question "Is Homosexuality Wrong" refers to the extreme negative influence religion has on the lives of many homo-sexuals.

And so far ( #184 ) I have not seen any proper based argument to support that extreme negative influence.

:rolleyes:

[inthebox]

I looked this up before I found it already posted--nice post, WVHF. I did find out, though, that "In God We Trust" started appearing on coins in the 1860s, which is still several decades after the founding of this country.

Common sense about the greater good is REFLECTED in Christian principles. Just because this country was founded on common sense (like--honor your parents, don't kill people, don't steal, do unto others as they'd do unto you), doesn't mean it was founded as a CHRISTIAN country. In fact, the founding fathers deliberately did NOT make this a Christian country, but one where ALL religion would be welcome.

So--our laws are based on the greater good, not on Christian principles.

Granted, this is from Wiki, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but Jefferson was actually AGAINST the Bible and religion being used in politics

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as some of the OTHER founding fathers are concerned--well, some of them WERE good Christians, of various denominations, but some of them were VERY outspoken against religion in general, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

So--don't tell me that our country was founded on Christianity. It wasn't. The Christian principles used were the same basic principles found in most religions all over the world.

I believe in the Constitution more than I believe in the Bible, and even THAT has been amended to account for the greater good of this country, and of the equality of ALL people in this country. Blacks and women were once thought (and there were supporting Bible stories!) to be less than men, and had fewer freedoms and privileges because of it. Our country is progressive enough to realize that change MUST be made to assure that "All men are created equal", and therefore have equal rights and privileges.

The Declaration of Independence


IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of NATURE'S GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

Off the op topic, but

The founding father's were overwhelmingly Christian. The historical context is that although they were religious, they did not want the government to impose a single state sanctioned religion. Catholics can worship the way they want, protestants can worship the way they wanted, etc... they wanted that right of religious expression [first ] established at the outset.



The founding fathers did not use terms like "we all evolved equally," or "it's just common sense...," or " based on our study of past and present cultutres....." or "it's self evident that we should all just follow the golden rule...." :D

[Credendovidis]

The founding father's were overwhelmingly Christian.

Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian...

:rolleyes:

[Synnen]

"Their Creator" allows each person to believe in whatever creator they like---not the Christian creator.

"Nature's God" probably comes closer to MY religion--as a Wiccan and a pagan and the fact that at least PART of my religion worships nature--than it comes to the Christian's god, though really, in the end, it's again open to interpretation as ANY god one wants to believe in. I mean, if you believe in a god, then you probably believe that that god created nature, right?

And I mean, if you really want to get picky about it, it states that all MEN are created equal--not all mankind, or all men and women, but all MEN. Does that mean that the interpretation of the Declaration is that women are subservient and should go back to being in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant and making their husbands or fathers happy?

[Tuscany]

Bringing the founding fathers in this argument is BS because the world has changed a great deal from when they were writing the Declaration of Independence. Heck the Dof I says that ALL MEN were created equal... we have changed that. As the world changes so to does society. THANK GOD we do not have the same rules and laws that the founding fathers had when they were writing the Declaration. The scary thing is that they were writing to declare freedom from their oppressor (England), but now the oppressed has become the oppressor.

[Credendovidis]

Bringing the founding fathers in this argument is BS ...

Indeed, specially as "inthebox" started using the founding fathers as argument for an otherwise unsupported wild claim !

;)

[bushg]

[QUOTE=Credendovidis]Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian...

:rolleyes:[/QUOTE

Did you make a typo here "Mainy"? :rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

Did you make a typo here "Mainy"?

As I stated before : I too make typing errors. Just as we all do. However not so many as some of those here who's mother tongue is English...

;)

Can we now return to the question " Is Homosexuality Wrong? "

:D

[sassyT]

Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian ....

:rolleyes:

Do you have any objective evidence for this or is this yet another one of your BELIEFS?. lol your unsupported beliefs are aways a bit far fetched.




97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Quotes from founding fathers

William Bradford
“The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

John Hancock:• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…
A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

Samuel Johnston:• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc. may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

George Washington:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

[Synnen]

Sassy--Did you read any of the links that I posted?

I guess next time I'll have to just copy and paste as you did. I had linked a page with several quotes from the Founding Fathers that were AGAINST a specific religion, or speaking against the Bible.

[Tuscany]

Do you have any objective evidence for this or is this yet another one of your BELIEFS? ..lol your beliefs are aways a bit far fetched.




97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Quotes from founding fathers

William Bradford
“The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

John Hancock:• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…
A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

Samuel Johnston:• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

George Washington:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

These are all wonderful quotes from men that have been dead for 100s of years. And although they were great men, they were speaking of the world they lived in back then. The world that we live in is quite different. Imagine if we stuck with the All MEN are created equal- where would women in today's society be? Certainly not in the running for the presidential nomination.

Times change and it is important that society changes with them.

[sassyT]

These are all wonderful quotes from men that have been dead for 100s of years. And although they were great men, they were speaking of the world they lived in back then. The world that we live in is quite different. Imagine if we stuck with the All MEN are created equal- where would women in today's society be? Certainly not in the running for the presidental nomination.

Times change and it is important that society changes with them.

I just quoted them to dispel the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian.. lol that's a joke.:rolleyes:

[Synnen]

Actually, we DIDN'T say the Founding Fathers weren't Christian.

Just that not ALL of them were.

And the MAIN argument was that this country was NOT founded on Christian principles.

And the reason we are this far off topic at this point is that one of the arguments used against homosexuality and allowing gay marriages in this country is that the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN, and that this country was created based on Christian principles.

So... as Tuscany says--it's really not the relevant. I'm just pointing out the reasoning for the side topic to begin with.

[Tuscany]

I just quoted them to dispell the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian..lol thats a joke.:rolleyes:

Good so then you agree that society has changed since the declaration. And although very intellegent the founding fathers had no idea what our society would be like in 2008. Therefore, it is realistic that when the founding father's wrote the D of I they could have meant ALL MEN were created equal- man, woman, black, white, gay straight. So now we need to treat all men equal. Case closed.

[N0help4u]

Whether they were Christian, deist or atheists they did understand the value of considering a persons religious freedoms to be important. If not why are there so many religious statutes and so forth on the government buildings in DC?
Anyway whether the founding fathers were or weren't is only going to end up very off topic.

[Tuscany]

Actually, we DIDN'T say the Founding Fathers weren't Christian.

Just that not ALL of them were.

And the MAIN argument was that this country was NOT founded on Christian principles.

And the reason we are this far off topic at this point is that one of the arguments used against homosexuality and allowing gay marriages in this country is that the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN, and that this country was created based on Christian principles.

So...as Tuscany says--it's really not the relevant. I'm just pointing out the reasoning for the side topic to begin with.

Thanks for clarifying Synn.

[Credendovidis]

I just quoted them to dispell the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian..lol thats a joke.:rolleyes:

No, that's not a joke.

As usual you are twisting words, you lie, and you misrepresent what others stated.
Nobody mentioned anything on none of the founding fathers being Christians.

Personally I stated that "many of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian"...

Now please prove me wrong, or rectify your statements...

:rolleyes: ;) :D ;) :rolleyes: