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Ncbosshoss · Jun 11, 2008, 06:57 PM

I have read several other posts here about this issue but want to share mine in particular. House is about a year old. Washing machine is upstairs and the drain line comes down right behind the toilet in the half bath downstairs. Homeowner complains that water gurgles in downstairs toilet when washing machine is spinning and the kitchen sink gurgles as well. We have put a camera in the main drain outside the house to the septic and all looks good. We can see the flow in the drain via the clean out and it seems to be flowing unobstructed. Homeowner ran a load in the washer with out clothes and put way too much detergent and we had suds everywhere. We realized she may be using too much detergent causing way to many suds. She ran a second load for us and no suds in toilet this time but it was gurgling pretty severely. Water was splashing about. Plumbers are going back out to snake/camera the vents from the attic down to the main drain to check for any blockages. The plumber is concerned as well that the original plumber used the wrong heel for the toilet as the house is on a slab. Are we on the right track focusing on a blocked vent. The plumbers are skeptical and are saying that nothing would work right if there was a venting problem. The downstairs toilet flushes completely normal if it is not competing with the washing machine. Thanks.

Chris

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2008, 07:10 PM

Chris, I think you are on the right track, gurgles usually mean vent problems. If it is the vent the gurgling will only happen when the washer is draining water and that includes the spin cycle. The gurgle is the toilet trying to act as a vent since the real vent is compromised. Some homes have more than one vent stack going to the roof. Others have stacks that join together before exiting through the roof call a revent. The troublesome toilet may be on its own vent and that's the one that's plugged. If you have a revent you'll need to cut the pipe below the revent and rod down each stack.

Ncbosshoss · Jun 12, 2008, 01:00 PM

Thanks. Discovered that the homeowner is also using way too much detergent in the wash. I'll post here what we find. Thanks.

Chris

Ncbosshoss · Jun 13, 2008, 07:12 PM

OK. Here is what the plumber found this evening. He says it does not meet code. He ran a camera down the vent stacks to the drain upstairs all the way down to the tie in with the main drain under the slab. There were two licensed plumbers there and both agree on what they saw. The original plumber that plumbed the slab used a sanitary T on its (horizontal) as opposed to a combination. Therefore, the washer drains into the T and it is sending water/air back to the toilet in the half bath located down stairs. Can you guys tell me if the T on it's back is indeed a violation of the plumbing code? It did pass inspection but that doesn't mean it was done right. The inspector must have overlooked it.

Chris

DaBaAd · Jun 13, 2008, 07:22 PM

Yep... here's the code:

SANITARY TEE: Both the International Residential Code (IRC) and the Uniform Plumbing Code (UPC) prohibit installing a sanitary Tee on a horizontal line with the side opening going horizontal or vertical.
Ref: IRC-3005.1 & UPC 706

Ncbosshoss · Jun 13, 2008, 07:34 PM

Thanks. Here's my next question and I am not trying to get into trade secrets. This was my first house that I built (I've built 2 which will be my last for a while) and I have never had to deal with this before. The original plumber who did the under the slab plumbing says earlier that he himself plumbed the slab and it met code and passed inspection and he's done. IF after the new evidence that he did it incorrectly he still doesn't own it, can the homeowner's sue him and the county? I know this is a legal question but maybe some of you have been down this road or know someone who has. Thanks for all the help.

Chris

DaBaAd · Jun 13, 2008, 07:55 PM

Anyone can be sued for anything if there's reason to believe that injury would be sustained or a huge sum could be won. This would be total speculation, but I don't see what the homeowner would gain by suing a sub-contractor. A tort suit? Perhaps but again the homeowner would have to prove sustained injury physical or otherwise.

speedball1 · Jun 14, 2008, 04:43 AM

Hey Chris, Ya faked me out with the word "gurgle".

the washer drains into the T and it is sending water/air back to the toilet in the half bath Water was splashing about.

The illegal sanitary tee's setting up a resistance when the washer discharge hits it and it's sending a bubble of air back up the line to the toilet creating the sound and action in the toilet bowl.

The original plumber who did the under the slab plumbing says earlier that he himself plumbed the slab and it met code and passed inspection and he's done.

Not quite so. The plumber made a mistake and the inspecter compounded that mistake by passing it. Plenty of blame to go around. The slab should be opened up and the san tee replaced with a combination wye and eighth bend. I would take pictures of the repair being made along with statements from the two plumbers and take them to my lawyer. It seems to me, (and I'm a plumber not a lawyer) that you would have a case against the building department as well as the eriginal plumber.
Good luck and kudos for identifying the problem. Tom

ballengerb1 · Jun 14, 2008, 02:51 PM

No physical injury is required to win a law suit. You have sustained damages, not to your person but to your home and checkbook. A suuccessful law suit would likely recover all of your expenses at best but don't be thinking of a $110K settlement. You will need evidence that the Tee is installed incorrectly and I'd suggest both video tape and still pictures of a licensed plumber opening up the slab.

Ncbosshoss · Jun 14, 2008, 05:31 PM

Thanks, guys. I hope we can get this issue resolved easily for all concerned. I'm in a bad spot being the GC. The plumber has taken a stand off attitude and it appears it will cost him some major grief. The homeowners are having the dept of insurance come out next week and videotape the plumbing and if they find the illegal T and he refuses to correct it they are going to pull his insurance which means his license is next. I'm hoping he will step up to the plate. Thanks again for all of the information shared.

Chris

speedball1 · Jun 14, 2008, 07:23 PM

Chris, I speak for all of us when I wish you the very best of luck. Tom

ballengerb1 · Jun 14, 2008, 08:18 PM

Just remember, half the plumbers graduated in the bottom half of their class. Being stubborn may be his defensive plan when he's caught in a screw up. If he won't step to the plate then maybe he does not deserve a license. Who hire him, you or the owner, you may get pulled in pretty deep yourself if my suspicion is correct. Good luck Chris.

Ncbosshoss · Jun 15, 2008, 07:19 AM

Thanks again for all the tips. I did in fact hire this guy and although I wasn't under contract with the homeowners (spec home) it is obviously a defect I'm obligated to correct and will do so. I've told the owners if the plumber wants to fight it I will fix it and join their fight. I hate to do it but right is right and wrong is bad. We're all adults here and if you make a mistake (we all do) you have to own it and make it right. I build one house a year as a hobby. I love the process of getting it built but this is my first bad experience with a homeowner and I have to tell you I am re-thinking my hobby! Thanks again and I'm hopeful and prayerful that a good outcome will prevail. :)

Chris

ballengerb1 · Jun 15, 2008, 08:05 AM

Love to hear how this plays out. Keep us informed as to the outcome. Bob

lnza4 · Jun 16, 2008, 04:03 PM

How do you clear a vent? I have gurgling noises from my basement toilet. Do I clear it out from the roof? How is this done?

massplumber2008 · Jun 17, 2008, 04:38 AM

Inza... at your other post you also stated that you had water seeping from the bottom of the toilet bowl when plumbing was used upstairs as well as the gurgling (toilet not draining).

Gurgling and seeping water from toilet bowl base most likely equals a clogged DRAIN.

You can snake it out from the roof or you can lift the toilet and snake the drain from there.

Let us know if you have other questions... MARK

Ncbosshoss · Jun 17, 2008, 12:14 PM

One little side not to this issue. The plumbers that ran the camera down the pipes and discovered the straight T also noted a sag in the drain between this drop and the point where the line exits through the foundation. The homeowner wants the plumber to dig that up too. My question is this.. if there is plenty of flow through the drain when water passes and suppose the drain does sag a bit and a little pocket of water stays there till pushed out.. is this a problem so to speak? It is not causing the water to not drain and or back up. Keep in mind this is under the slab. Any thoughts?

Chris

ballengerb1 · Jun 17, 2008, 12:30 PM

That sag can/will eventually become a problem. The standard slope is 1/4" per foot all the way down the run. The sage will allow heavier soilds to start a build up and the plumber made his second error there. Bet he tells you if it drain OK now he has nothing to repair. You need a new sub on your next project house.