[Starman]

It is ironic that the very people who were given God's name and repeatedly commanded to show that name respect by glorifying it and proclaiming it should eventually be the very ones who went in the completely opposite direction by striving to make it unknown. There is NOTHING in the Hebrew scriptures that justifies turning a deaf ear to those clear instructions.

[orange]

It is ironic that the very people who were given God's name and repeatedly commanded to show that name respect by glorifying it and proclaiming it should eventually be the very ones who went in the completely opposite direction by striving to make it unknown.

True enough, but it's important to realize that, Judaism is not so much a religion as it is the religious tradition of the Jewish people. Therefore, oral traditions handed down through the generations are sometimes considered just as important as commandments written in the Torah. In this case, the prohibition against speaking the Name of G-d was in effect for generations before the Torah was even written down. It's thought to come from ancient people's beliefs that with speaking a sacred Name comes power. In fact it's actually said that G-d simply spoke His Name and the world came into being (even though that's not mentioned in scripture).

There is NOTHING in the Hebrew scriptures that justifies turning a deaf ear to those clear instructions.

Again, while this is true, it's important also to realize that Judaism has never been a sola scriptura religion. That is to say, the beliefs and practices of the Jews have never been based solely on the Torah (Bible). Tradition also plays a part, as does the Talmud, which is the Rabbis and Sages interpretations of the Torah, written during the Babylonian exile.

[Starman]

True enough, but it's important to realize that, Judaism is not so much a religion as it is the religious tradition of the Jewish people. Therefore, oral traditions handed down through the generations are sometimes considered just as important as commandments written in the Torah. In this case, the prohibition against speaking the Name of G-d was in effect for generations before the Torah was even written down. It's thought to come from ancient people's beliefs that with speaking a sacred Name comes power. In fact it's actually said that G-d simply spoke His Name and the world came into being (even though that's not mentioned in scripture).

I am aware of the ideas and traditions which led Israel to conclude that the glorification of God's name should be ignored. Of course those who believe the Bible to be mere ideas of men might see this shunting aside of scripture as of little importance. But for those who consider the Bible the word of God, human customs, traditions, and superstitions you mention should have never taken precedence over God's clear instructions. Jesus, whom we Christians consider the Messiah, spoke against placing such traditions above God's word. That's one reason why he was disliked by the religious leaders of his day.

Again, while this is true, it's important also to realize that Judaism has never been a sola scriptura religion. That is to say, the beliefs and practices of the Jews have never been based solely on the Torah (Bible). Tradition also plays a part, as does the Talmud, which is the Rabbis and Sages interpretations of the Torah, written during the Babylonian exile.

I disagree that there never was a time when Israel felt obligated to live by the law, both moral and ceremonial. The book of Exodus clearly tells us that when given the law the at Sinai they all agreed to abide it and suffer the consequences if they didn't. In the books of Chronicles and Kings as well as in the minor and major prophets we are provided with numerous examples of how God punished the nation whenever it deviated from its agreement or covenant with God. So this deviation from law which you say is OK because of human tradition was never seen that way by the judges which succeeded Moses, nor by the faithful kings of Israel, nor by the prophets who repeatedly exhorted the people to pay strict attention to what God had commanded them to do. True, the nation deviated, but it was constantly exhorted to keep to its covenant and warned that apostasy would bring disaster as when the Assyrians invaded the northern ten-tribe Kingdom and the Babylonians the Two tribe Kingdom and the people taken into exile.

In short, if God considered it as lightly as you do, then he would have simply not reacted to their deviations. But the scriptures show a completely different picture than the one you describe.

BTW
It was during association with pagan nations during exiles that many non-Mosaic-Law ideas were introduced.

[milliec]

HI!
I mostly agree with Starman, with some additional elaborations:
The changes introduced were meant to update biblical laws to the time these changes were introduced. Not to change the basic SPIRIT, or CONCEPT of Judaism.
Like, for example, divorce doesn't exist in the Torah, or stoning a person for certain reasons as was mentioned in the Torah - can you imagine it happening today?
We learnt parts of the talmud in high school - and these are actually books of laws, different aspects of everyday life, not everything was elaborated in the Torah up to its very minute aspect.
In the bible, there are also laws which wouldn't be accepted today, like women not being allowed to testify in trials!
There were times our scholars made the adjustments necessary to everyday life, but , unfortunately this has stopped, and so, in many aspects, the Jewish religious law is not compatible with life these days .
As for God's name, as I have previously mentioned, the full name of God is an unique word in Hebrew which is derived from the root of the verb to be, but is past, present and future all in one, and implies the eternity if god, as well as the creation, since everything exists due to God's will when expressed by God: "Let there be...."
A t lest, that's what we were thought in high school here...
Bye,
(and Shabath Shalom!)
Millie :)

[orange]

Thanks guys for your responses! It's all very interesting, but it's become pretty apparent to me that I am in way over my head. I don't seem to know enough about the subject to have a decent discussion. :(

Millie, if you don't mind me asking, what denomination of Judaism do you belong to? A lot of what you say makes sense to me, but it's very different from what my husband and his family says.

Shabbat Shalom to you to! :)

[milliec]

Hi Dear!
As you know, I live in Israel. I'm a secular Jew. At this moment, we're still the majority of Jews here.
Since we live in the Jewish state, the Jewish religion and tradition are observed here, to different degrees,by most of the Jewish population.
In schools we all learn the Bible, and when I was in high school, parts of the Talmud as well (which I quite enjoyed) .
We generally keep the tradition at home:Rosh Hashana, Om Kippur, Pesah, etc.
We drive on Saturdays. I was born in Bucharest a, Romania and came to Israel when I was 12 y. old (AGES AGO!)
My mother was raised in a "modern"-traditional family, which might be like Bney Akiva today.
My father grew up in an Orthodox family, he even went to a "Heder" when he was little.
In his teens, he rebelled and went to Hashomer Hatzair.
My husband grew was born here, he grew up in a Sefardic traditional family - like Bney Akiva - his father was a Hazan.
I be glad to answer any questions you might still have, tough I think the other participants might find it boring.
Bye,
Millie:)

[talaniman]

On the contrary Millie,I find the religious discussion engaged here absolutely fascinating and that members of the same religion have grown in different directions with their own identities so to speak. As I can strictly follow no set belief,the fact that a multiple of beliefs can be discussed with no malice or name calling or no presumption of judgement is refreshing to this forum, and hope that others who follow different beliefs weigh in as well.:cool: :)

[jduke44]

Actually, Millie, I find it interesting because I wasn't aware there were so many differnet denominations so to speak as there is with Christians. I may not understand stand it all but I am finding I am learning a little this. Especially, coming from both Ornages andyour points of views.

[orange]

Thanks Millie! Ah that explains the differences then, you being secular. I've been secular too, all of my life. The difference with me is though, not being in Israel, I never learned anything in school; I am learning now. My husband and I are both agnostics actually, but he was raised Modern Orthodox, and still believes the teachings although he doesn't keep many of the laws lol. His parents have since gravitated towards the Lubavitch. Actually his sister and her family, and his brother are all Lubavitch as well. We never went to synagogue until we adopted our niece and nephew, and we are taking them to shul because they are saying kaddish for theie parents. Although the children's parents were not religious either, their grandparents were quite influential in the children's lives, as far as religious beliefs go. So it's a bit difficult, as the kids are used to a lot of the Lubavitch practices. I've had to make a few compromises for them since they've been here.

It is very interesting, and I will continue asking questions whether the other members think it's boring or not LOL! :p But as you can see, there are already two here besides me who don't.

Yup jduke there are actually many different Jewish denominations, probably not as many as within Christianity, but there are a few. The major ones are Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, and Orthodox. There are also a couple of other groups I've heard of, the Traditionalists and the Jewish Renewal. Then of course there's secular Jews, and Jews who are agnostics and atheists (my grandmother was a Jewish communist lol). Among the Orthodox, there are the Modern Orthodox, and the various groups of Hasidic Jews. The Lubavitch, who I mentioned earlier, are Hasidic Jews, but they are different from some of the other Hasidic groups in that they associate with other Jews and prostelize (spelling?). Whereas most Hasidic groups (Bobovers, Satmars, etc) are quite insular and don't have much to do with other Jews.

[milliec]

Thanks!
I'll elaborate as far as you would like to.
In any case, I consider myself as a person who believes in a higher Something. I don't , personally , like the whole religions business. In my opinion, religions are sort of political- religious parties.
I fully believe that the role of religions is mainly to help us maintain a moral conduct, of mutual respect, a way of living which will enable all of us to coexist.
The fast that we observe Jewish traditions, to a certain degree ( which will never be considered enough by orthodox Jews), is only because we were born Jews and we live in a Jewish state.
Bye,
Mille :)

[orange]

Hi Dear!
I was born in Bucharest a, Romania and came to Israel when I was 12 y. old (AGES AGO!)

Oh cool... my biological mother's family came from Romania as well... the state/province of Transylvania, actually. Coincidentally, my husband's family is also originally from Transylvania. Our families lived quite close to each other, in neighboring towns, for hundreds of years... up until the Shoah, that is. :( Anyway I've always thought it was kind of cool that my husband and I met up here in Canada. It must have been fate! :)

[orange]

Thanks!
I'll elaborate as far as you would like to.
In any case, I consider myself as a person who believes in a higher Something. I don't , personally , like the whole religions business. In my opinion, religions are sort of political- religious parties.
I fully believe that the role of religions is mainly to help us maintain a moral conduct, of mutual respect, a way of living which will enable all of us to coexist.
The fast that we observe Jewish traditions, to a certain degree ( which will never be considered enough by orthodox Jews), is only due to the fact that we were born Jews and we live in a Jewish state.
Bye,
Mille :)

Yup I'm with you about the religious aspects. I love keeping the traditions and holidays, especially for the children, it's very fun. But I don't really believe in the laws (although I find discussions about them interesting), and I have no desire to become Lubavitch ever! I especially don't like the laws of Family Purity. My in-laws say Family Purity is not degrading to women, but I really don't agree. Just curious, but how common is Family Purity in Israel? Since you're secular, you don't practice it, do you?

[orange]

In short, if God considered it as lightly as you do, then he would have simply not reacted to their deviations. But the scriptures show a completely different picture than the one you describe.

Thanks very much for the long response, Starman. It was fascinating to read! However, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that I take things lightly. Actually I am very serious in my discussions. And the remarks I made were based on things I've heard from my family and in-laws, who are very religious Jews. To say that they take any part of their faith lightly is really unfair and not true at all. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to disrespect them.

[milliec]

Dear Chava,
You're right, I never practised the Purity laws - I only went to the Mikveh when I married (I had to show the Rabbi the notice that I went there)
I DO regard the purity laws degrading - I think that in old times, when people didn't have baths in their homes, there was a point. As to the period you're supposed to stay away -THIS IS really degrading!
In any case, among the Ethiopian Jews, in Ethiopia, women used to LIVE in a different shed!
As you very well know, this is the reason religious Jews won't shake a woman's hand!
TALK ABOUT DEGRADING!
Now I'm a grand mother - so if they won't shake my hand now - should I regard it as a compliment?
In any case, I look much younger than I really an (genetic trait) but I do have some white hair, so I am amused at times!
Bye,
Millie :)

[orange]

That's a good point, about not having baths in the homes. Yeah it makes more sense in that case, but not for today. I don't think anyone (except the very poor), don't have indoor plumbing these days.

And yeah I'm well acquainted with the not shaking hands or touching stuff. My father-in-law and brother-in-law both won't touch me. Apparently also, if we practiced the laws of Family Purity, my husband would not be allowed to touch our adopted daughter (niece) once she hits puberty, since they are not biological father and daughter. He assures me that he would never do that to Shaina no matter what, but I told him if he ever did I would divorce him!! I really hate that law!

And LOL about the compliment. Yeah probably you should take it as one! ;)

[Starman]

Thanks very much for the long response, Starman. It was fascinating to read! However, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that I take things lightly. Actually I am very serious in my discussions. And the remarks I made were based on things I've heard from my family and in-laws, who are very religious Jews. To say that they take any part of their faith lightly is really unfair and not true at all. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to disrespect them.

My apologies if I came across as disrespectful. I am sure that your family takes their faith very seriously. So I in no way was trying to cast doubt on their sincerity. I was merely responding to your statements which seemed to justify ignoring the clear biblical exhortations in reference to God's name. Can we really say we take those commandments seriously if we justify ignoring them because of superstition or customs that developed hundreds of years after they were given? If indeed we are to hold the statements of the Hebrew scriptures as inspired of God, then the exhortation to make his name known should have been heeded not ignored or explained away as was done and as it is still being done. That's all I said.

[milliec]

Hi Starman!
We're not supposed to pronounce the explicit name of god. The way it is written in Hebrew, everywhere in the
Bible. In former entries, I've tried to explain what is considered the meaning of His name as seen from our language (Hebrew) - at least that's what I learnt in
high school.
In any case, we DON'T pronounce His name whenever we read it in the scriptures: the Jews who follow strictly our religion, pronounce "HASHEM", which means: The Name.
the others, the secular Jews (like me) say "adonay" which actually is a kind of hybrid between adoni-my lord, my master, and the plural form of the word lord, master (=adon), in plural it should have been adonym (hence, lords, masters).
In the Hebrew Bible text, God is also named ELOHYM = Gods, which is the plural of the word God (=el) - by this form it's meant that This God (ours, the one the Bible refers to) is above all other gods adulated by the polytheists religion, this god is the one in which exist everyl trait attributed to all other pagan gods.
END OF LECTURE!
(I hope! At least I'll try!)
Millie

[Starman]

Hi Starman!
We're not supposed to pronounce the explicit name of god. The way it is written in Hebrew, everywhere in the
Bible. In former entries, I've tried to explain what is considered the meaning of His name as seen from our language (Hebrew) - at least that's what i learnt in
high school.
In any case, we DON'T pronounce His name whenever we read it in the scriptures: the Jews who follow strictly our religion, pronounce "HASHEM", which means: The Name.
the others, the secular Jews (like me) say "adonay" which actually is a kind of hybrid between adoni-my lord, my master, and the plural form of the word lord, master (=adon), in plural it should have been adonym (hence, lords, masters).
In the Hebrew Bible text, God is also named ELOHYM = Gods, which is the plural of the word God (=el) - by this form it's meant that This God (ours, the one the Bible refers to) is above all other gods adulated by the polytheists religion, this god is the one in which exist everyl trait attributed to all other pagan gods.
END OF LECTURE!
(I hope! At least I'll try!)
Millie

I cannot try because you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying.
You are assuming ignorance of these things on my part which is not the case.
I am aware that Elohim and other substitutes are used in the place of the original pronunciation and that is exactly what I am referring to. It goes against the original clear instructions given to Moses in which God's name was directly given to the Hebrews to be pronounced as given and not to be later shunned and substituted based on some superstition or some other idea that might come along. The instructions given Moses from the burning bush on Mount Sinai did not provide the option of substitution that you speak about. Exodus 6: 2,3

If I say my name is Alexander and tell you that it is very important that you remember this and you turn around and call me Joe, then it's clear that a mistake has been made. The trouble is that we humans have a tendency to make big mistakes and then we try to move heaven and earth in an effort to deny it by means of justifying it. Much wiser would be to simply admit that a mistake was made. Otherwise the sin is compounded by hubris.

[orange]

My apologies if I came across as disrespectful. I am sure that your family takes their faith very seriously. So I in no way was trying to cast doubt on their sincerity. I was merely responding to your statements which seemed to justify ignoring the clear biblical exhortations in reference to God's name. Can we really say we take those commandments seriously if we justify ignoring them because of superstition or customs that developed hundreds of years after they were given? If indeed we are to hold the statements of the Hebrew scriptures as inspired of God, then the exhortation to make his name known should have been heeded not ignored or explained away as was done and as it is still being done. That's all I said.

Thanks for your response, Starman. I'm really impressed and really appreciate you clearing that up for me. You're a gem on the forum for that! Most people just get annoyed and even lash out, and then I have to ignore them. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with not speaking the Name of G-d... if you've been following my posts I'm actually an agnostic with a fairly religious family. So I'm mostly just repeating what they tell me. As Millie says, traditionally we aren't supposed to say HaShem's Name. Again, all I can offer as an explanation is that the Jewish faith is not based solely on the Torah. The Talmud and certain handed-down traditions are considered important as well. For example, Channukah is not mentioned in the Torah. It started being celebrated in the middle ages, as far as I know. And some of those handed-down traditions, as you mentioned, were probably originally pagan, and picked up during the exile.

It might not make sense given the passage in the Torah, but there it is. I doubt the law will ever be adjusted or changed, as we have been practicing it for at least 2000 years, and there is a large amount superstition surrounding it as well. I liken it to a kind of "Steven Spielberg Raiders of the Lost Ark" superstition. Like I've heard religious people actually say they would be AFRAID to speak it.

The other thing is of course, we really don't know how it would actually be pronounced, since there are no vowels attached to it. I'm sure some very Orthodox Jews would argue that mispronouncing it would be disrespectful and much worse than not pronouncing it at all. And, since the Jews have no governing body or hierarchy (like the Pope, for example), each Rabbi and synagogue could do whatever they wanted. I doubt there would ever be a general consensus.

Anyway, interesting discussion, thanks!

[milliec]

Dear friends!
I think both of you are real gems.
Starman, please forgive me if I call yo "my friend"!
I wasn't inferring that you didn't know what you were talking about - I just hoped to shed some light from this side of the world, hoping to help a little, maybe, though I always stress that I'm not claiming what I say is the absolute answer. (personally, I think there's no such thing)
I completely agree with what Chava had to say and I wish to add that this thing began with the 3rd commandment, I'm sorry if my private translation is a little awkward, but I don't have an english version of the bible.
This commandment forbids to mention god's name in vain.
Everything mentioned in the bible got numerous interpretations . In this case, one of them refers to taking a false oath, like in the case of perjury, but another interpretation says that one shouldn't pronounce god's name casually, only when it's appropriate.
And since jews like to argue about every single topic, (there's an inside joke we say about ourselves: wherever there are 10 jews you'll get at leat 20 opinions... a very popular opening is:"...on the other hand...", and you'll be surprised to count the number of hands one has... )
SO: since no one can say when is the right situation to pronounce god's name, it's safer not to! Isn't it?
In any case, it's true we write mostly consonants without vowels, but,the bible is written with the little dots used for vowels, (I'm sorry, I don't know their term in english). God's name could be read properly, but, as we all know, isn't.
Sorry, if I offended anyone, I really didn't mean to.
And by saying "end of lecture" I was referring to myself, because I felt I might have been too long.
( I can still hear my kids:"mom, o.k. end the lecture, will you?')
Mille
p.s.
Almost no capital letters because I aimed to end this letter today (here it's 11:59 pm) I was afraid it might have taken me a whole week to type it properly!
M.
:)