[workerbee]

Hey skygem, I want to ask one thing If you answer try to be polite and I will respond politely. We may not agree with each other but we should listen. Here is my question
Just because it is written in the Bible means nothing What other sources do you have to prove that angels,demons exist? If none other then you must see my point. Many, many problems with that book The Bible can say what it wants but that doesn't mean anything. Let me give an example you will ignore but I hope you will try to read because it is a fact. Prayer, we always hear about it but it NEVER works. Here is how we know. The AHJ decided to answer this question once and for all it conducted a 3 year, 2.4 million dollar, 1800 (heart)patient. No one got better The conclusion was that prayer does not work. I can post the link if you like but I doubt you will read it. The only prayer that seems to work is vague prayer like I hope it rains, sooner or later it will rain. That kind of thing
If you really want to learn more read what Bibical scholars know it is very interesting

workerbee

[SkyGem]

Hey skygem, I want to ask one thing If you answer try to be polite and i will respond politely. We may not agree with each other but we should listen. Here is my question
Just because it is written in the Bible means nothing

It actually means EVERYTHING! The Bible is the inspired Word of God. There are some who misinterpret the Bible, however, to suit their own purposes but that does not change God's word from being infallable. I do not expect you to understand that as you are obviously anti-Christian. If you want to learn more about Christianity, however, and that's why you're here in a Christian forum, then I would be most happy to help you.

What other sources do you have to prove that angels,demons exist?

Christians do not need "other sources" as skeptics do in order to prove the existence of angels and demons.

I have quoted from the Holy Bible offering proof of the existence of demons. You may of course choose to not believe if that is your leaning. As to angels, there is an angel of the Annunciation that announced when Jesus was going to be born. Aside from that this is what Scripture says about angels (there are many more Scriptural passages besides these):

"And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city." -- GENESIS 19:15 (KJV)

"And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him." -- GENESIS 32:1 (KJV)

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, the holy place." -- PSALMS 68:17 (KJV)

"For He shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways." -- PSALM 91:11 (KJV)

"So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " -- MATTHEW 13:49-50 (KJV)

There are so many other references to God's angels as well as to demons, as I have quoted before. If you, however, want to know about man's experiences with demons or angels, I am sure you can simply Google the phrase or word intended and come up with great information!

We Christians believe our God Jesus Christ (who is ONE in the Holy Trinity) and that suffices for us. Un-believers, by virtue of their pseudonym, do not believe how we could, but we can and that is what makes us Strong Christians. However, for those who have a different religion or viewpoint, there is empirical evidence sustaining the fact that angels and demons indeed do exist. It is obvious that you are not open to learning about the Christian religion, therefore, I feel further discussion would fall on deaf ears and would prove to be an exercise in futility as well as detract from my time in helping those who come here who truly want to learn about Christianity. As a matter of principle, I do not discuss Christianity with those who do not want to learn more about it or have a closed mind. For those with an open mind, I am always happy to discuss matters further as they search for Christ.

if none other then you must see my point. Many, many probelms with that book The Bible can say what it wants but that doesn't mean anything.

You will remember what you said when you make your transition and stand before God in judgment. But you will not have to explain to me why you did not believe, but to God. I hope you amend your ways of thinking before your appointed time comes for you to pass. I say that because God created you too and despite your sheer reluctance to accept Him that is an undeniable fact.

let me give an example you will ignore but I hope you will try to read because it is a fact. Prayer, we always hear about it but it NEVER works.

Prayer works for those Christians who Believe and have Faith and who have given their life to Jesus since they are now aligned with Him, He, likewise is closer to them in their time of need. I will not speak as to other religions and what they believe since we are a Christianity forum. If prayer does not work for you or other atheists then you need look no further than your lack of belief. The moment you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior things would start to change so that your view point would actually change also about prayer. Try it and see! What would it hurt but your ego yet your life would surely change and if you became Born Again you would be given Salvation what every Christian looks forward to at the point of their passing. That may not mean much to you now but believe me, it WILL when it comes time!

here is how we know. The AHJ decided to answer this question once and for all it conducted a 3 year, 2.4 million dollar, 1800 (heart)patient. No one got better The conclusion was that prayer does not work. I can post the link if you like but I doubt you will read it. The only prayer that seems to work is vague prayer like I hope it rains, sooner or later it will rain. That kind of thing
If you really want to learn more read what Bibical scholars know it is very interesting

workerbee

When prayer does not work it is because of different factors. One of them could be the person's lack of belief that they will actually be healed. Secondly, there are people who simply want to hold on to their dis-ease simply because being ill can get them the help and attention they might not otherwise have received. Likewise, they may not want to truly change or strange as it may seem, some people's heart is not in wanting to get well so God actually honors their request. Thirdly, there may be lessons that were pre-ordained that the person may need to learn with that illness. If they did not undergo that kind of trial with the illness they may never learn what must be learned for greater spiritual elevation. Know that not everyone who cries out "Lord, Lord!" is going to be healed. There is so much more to that and a person has to be with God and with His teachings in order for God to truly feel a positive benefit to their health is warranted. And surely, to make a person well, as in to heal those who simply want to continue to sin and cause others to sin would not be conducive to the true principles of Divine healing.

Like I said, if you want to learn more on how to become a Christian and that is why you have entered into this forum, I will be glad to work with you and continue to have discourse but if you merely want to present your point of view that is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christianity in order to take my time which is better used to help those wanting to learn more about God and to align with Him, then I must help those who are seeking Christ in their life. I hope you understand my mission as I do yours.

[workerbee]

Well, skygem you answered politely, so thanks for that, you should not be so quick to dismiss what I say about prayer. I was a Chrsitian for many years but I always thought it was nonsense so I started reading from scholars, people who make a living knowing the Bible, it's history etc. That's how I changed over the years to become an Atheist. If you believe in prayer you can try this which will fail. Go and pray for an amputee, so he/her gets back a limb. Guarantee will not work. You and others will have excuses but the answer is that prayer is not real. I think the reason Atheism is growing worldwide is because people are tired of waiting for prayer to work, or jesus coming down, all of the empty promises. I think everyone is now realizing that these are just stories, superstitions, fokelore, that kind of thing

workerbee

[SkyGem]

Well, skygem you answered politely, so thanks for that, you should not be so quick to dismiss what i say about prayer. I was a Chrsitian for many years but i always thought it was nonsense so i started reading from scholars, people who make a living knowing the Bible, it's history etc. That's how I changed over the years to become an Athiest. If you believe in prayer you can try this which will fail. Go and pray for an amputee, so he/her gets back a limb. Guarantee will not work. You and others will have excuses but the answer is that prayer is not real. I think the reason Atheism is growing worldwide is because people are tired of waiting for prayer to work, or jesus coming down, all of the empty promises. I think everyone is now realizing that these are just stories, superstitions, fokelore, that kind of thing

workerbee

Greetings. I decided to respond to you again because of what you have said in your posting that you were a Christian once. Many people who start as being Christians are mislead in one way or another to believe "man's" way. And of course, that leads to the ultimate deception because you and I both know that many in the world today are not Believers in the Word of God. Therefore, they will try to confuse the issue and bring in information that would try to dispute Biblical healings. That they cannot do but they will present an argument, much like yours about the amputee. Trying to regrow a limb is possible but only with the help of God. Man's desire by itself, no matter how strong, is still no match for God's healing since God has to first give His permission for healing to occur. And of course, if one tried to go to an amputee right now and pray for his or her leg to grow back, it more than likely would not simply because God will not be mocked in that manner. God does not have to prove anything to anyone. It is like the devil tempting Jesus at the top of the mountain. Jesus responded by saying "Get thee behind me satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (LUKE 4:8 (KJV) This was a great temptation by the adversary and thus many of his followers today will use the same kind of tactics to try to get good Christians to try "experiments" just to see how successful they are. What those people who may be so foolish as to try to take them up on that may not realize is that when trying to perform such a feat, the Power is all in Jesus not on the individual testing Jesus and it is an affront to Him to test God and His healing since all healing comes from God. Those who would try to mock God or test Him will also find the fruits of their labor in due time and let me tell you the results won't be very pretty.

I'm afraid the real danger is in non-Believers who try to portray themselves as somehow being superior to God because of their beliefs. They must remember that God created them too! He does allow them to carry on simply because He gave them Free Will choice but there are consequences in the end they must remember. So, they must be cautious as to how far they go with this line of deception. Somehow, I feel there is a side to you that is searching for a way to come back to Christianity. You have been led here for a reason. If the stifling power of atheism has not got a complete stronghold on you, and even if it has, there is still Hope! Search deep inside yourself and see the side that was once Strong and Happy in knowing that you were not alone and that an animal did not make you, nor a tree, nor a rock but GOD! And you are still God's child but have been terribly misled by the company you keep and what you read. Deep down you still know that but cannot acknowledge it because of the stranglehold this belief system has on you. Let me know if you want to know more about how to RELEASE this stranglehold. I can work with you if you wish and would be most happy to!

Now, concerning your hypothesis that prayer does not work, I would like for you to take a good look at the following Internet websites that offer a much different opinion and even EVIDENCE to the contrary. Before you say no, look at these, read through them and then come back and tell me if there is any comparable power in the Universe, other than God, who could accomplish all those things through prayer.

A great website full of testimonies not only from individuals but from prestigious universities, etc. attesting to the power of prayer!
Miracles of Prayer :: Research Studies

Great Testimonies from wonderful people! Can Prayer Heal?

A fantastic website and not just for Christians! Testimonies of how God has answered our prayers

Please keep an Open Mind when you read what many professionals and others are saying and you should soon find that there is evidence to the contrary of what you have been taught or the opinion you have reached about prayer.

[workerbee]

Trying to grow a limb with prayer is impossible, it has never happened and been researched I might add. No one is mocking God. I learned years ago prayer doesn't work because I tired praying for people when I was young they had physical problems, never worked no matter how hard I tried, at the time I thought the problem was me, but the truth God does not exist. As far as the links you gave me testimonials don't mean much so I didn't read all of them They had people invetisgate these faith healers many people went onstage screaming they were cured next day they talked to people that claimed they were cured and were in fact not. They were caught up in the moment, and peer pressure that sort of thing. Pretty interesting no one of the hundreds that claimed cures were not cured after all. As far as the first link I wanted to address that , they are vague in other words if you think you will be cured you might in fact feel better but that is not God it is power of suggestion. That's how new medicines are tested, you need to weed out power of suggestion (placebo)so the AHJ fixing flaws in earlier studies (like power of suggetion) launched the biggest study that I have ever heard about and the conclusion was Prayer does not work though they use bigger words
Please read the link and this was made in2006 the latest research out there. Placebo effect cannot cure amputees, or people with a severed spine, etc that is why I use that as an example. The mind is powerful that is why studies like I posted need to be acurate, so I say again prayer unfortunately does not work. Like I said before pray for someone in a wheelchair see what the results will be
American Heart Journal - Abstract: Volume 151(4) April 2006 p 934-942 Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory pra
The bible is just stories like Noah's ark You know that didn't happen I hope How can yopu get the 30 million known land species on a boat? You might try to read what scholars know about the bible. Reading from just religious writers is one sided
Anyway read the link
Just so you know I am not trying to convert you I was just answering the question about demons

workerbee

[SkyGem]

The bible is just stories like Noah's ark You know that didn't happen i hope How can yopu get the 30 million known land species on a boat?

God can truly do the IMPOSSIBLE or what may seem 'impossible' to man! Just read MATTHEW 17:20 (KJV) and PHILLIPPIANS 4:13 (KJV). When God guided Noah to build the ark, He knew the capacity it could hold and there is absolutely no good reason for Christians to doubt what God does. Absolutely none, though man may purport to have the answers about what God does and may try to use inaccurate and abstract thinking in the process, it will never compare with God's INFALLIBLE Word.

You might try to read what scholars know about the bible. reading from just religious writers is one sided
anyway read the link

You have to also understand that a great many medical people are not Christian. There are many atheists among them and of course their information would have that slant! This is important to know for balance to the situation. And medicine/science always wants to prove things through empirical evidence. With God's work and His Omnisicent Power, things cannot be readily explained by mere mortals and never will be.

Just so you know I am not trying to convert you i was just answering the question about demons

workerbee

Of course you aren't, because you know it wouldn't work in my case. But I have enjoyed having this conversation with you, and as mentioned previously, I must now turn my full attention to helping those who are truly seeking God.

[workerbee]

SkyGem, you keep quoting the Bible and saying others might be slanted but the Bible is slanted and it has mistranslations. When one person decides that the Bible is infallible then you close your mind to anything else this is where problems happen. Other religions think there way is best which can cause wars, etc. The Bible was written by angry hateful men with little education, period

workerbee

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

SkyGem, you keep quoting the Bible and saying others might be slanted but the Bible is slanted and it has mistranslations.

What mistranslations?

When one person decides that the Bible is infallible then you close your mind to anything else this is where problems happen.

Because it is.. It is the only absolute truth we have in this world. Every other truth is relative.

The Bible was written by angry hateful men with little education, period

This your opinion not fact.

[SkyGem]

[quote=sassyT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by workerbee
SkyGem, you keep quoting the Bible and saying others might be slanted but the Bible is slanted and it has mistranslations.

what mistranslations??

Quote:
When one person decides that the Bible is infallible then you close your mind to anything else this is where problems happen.

because it is.. It is the only absolute truth we have in this world. Every other truth is relative.

Quote:
The Bible was written by angry hateful men with little education, period

This your opinion not fact.

Yes, sassyT, you are correct in this. Your replies are in purple. In addition, those interested may wish to look at the following most informative Internet website! You may also wish to pay close attention to the paragraph on "SIR WILLIAM RAMSEY".

The Holy Bible, Proof the Holy Bible is true, Proof the Holy Bible has supernatural origins, the Bible & the Torah Codes, Bible sermons messages articles by Max Solbrekken World missions, www.mswm.org..

[workerbee]

A lot of the Bible are just stories not history you people are so closed minded it's scary. Here is one example of a mistranslation. The crossing of the Red sea never happened the bible actually says they crossed the sea of reeds. When that part was translated it was assumed they meant the red sea. The marsh area the jews crossed ( by the way there is NO evidence that this story is even remotely true)
That area is 8 to 10 inches of water and at low tide is dry. When you say a LIE long enough it becomes the truth.

workerbee

[SkyGem]

The original question concerning demons has taken a serious turn 180 degrees to the other side by anti-Christians in an attempt to obfuscate the original question and issue in support of demons, I'm afraid. If there is a way to do this, they will find it, be assured of that! There are some who visit here who have brought out absurdities and endless theories as there are their theorists. One such thing is the Red Sea vs. Sea of Reed thing. The Holy Bible actually says the Red Sea is what Moses parted at God's direction. This is referred to actually as the Red Sea in HEBREWS 11:29 (KJV). Another factor about the "reed thing" is that reeds do not grow in salt water! And the Sea of Reeds is a swampy area to the North of the Red Sea, not where Pharaoh's army was drowned by God's Power. Reeds, incidentally, are also known as papyrus which the Egyptians used and continue to use today. 1 KINGS 9:26 shows it is the RED SEA. If what the anti-Christians are actually saying were to be true, then Pharaoh's army would have DROWNED in the 8 TO 10 inches of water they passed through! We must then deduct How WONDERFUL is God's Power to take care of these soldiers in such a small amount of water!

God, again, can truly Perform Miracles! Of course, closed-minded skeptics, especially heretics, will never understand that or want to understand that. The attempt to discredit Biblical Truths will continue, most unfortunately, under the guise that man knows more than God. But God actually allows this, just to Prove them WRONG in the end. Since they do not appear to realize this, their games will thus, most likely, continue but God's Glory will indeed Prove Them Wrong at God's appointed time.

[workerbee]

Skygem you are correct that this thread took a 180 degree turn. Now let me answer you question. First off I am not making this up. Read below
However, apart from the matter of the number of people is an even more significant issue. The problem is that the biblical account never refers to the Red Sea by name. In fact, nowhere in the entire Old Testament Hebrew text is the body of water associated with the exodus ever called the "Red Sea." Instead in the Hebrew text the reference is to the yam suph. The word yam in Hebrew is the ordinary word for "sea," although in Hebrew it is used for any large body of water whether fresh or salt. The word suph is the word for "reeds" or "rushes," the word used in Ex. 2:3, 5 to describe where Moses' basket was placed in the Nile. So, the biblical reference throughout the Old Testament is to the "sea of reeds" (e.g. Num 14:25, Deut 1:40, Josh 4:23, Psa 106:7. etc.).

The translation "Red Sea" is simply a traditional translation introduced into English by the King James Version through the second century BC Greek Septuagint and the later Latin Vulgate. It then became a traditional translation of the Hebrew terms. However, many modern translations either translate yam suph as "Sea of Reeds" or use the traditional translation and add a footnote for the Hebrew meaning.


You are reading a mistranslation, When I first saw this on TV it mentions the drowning as the jews attacking the egyptians in the marsh and killing them (tey don't mean a literal drowning you need to educate yourself) That's why you should read from other sources instead of being a close-minded person. To believe in Noah's ark ,a young earth, that is sad
Let me finish by saying there are no demons, only the ones are in people's minds so rachie doesn't have a thing to worry about. Back on topic

workerbee

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

A lot of the Bible are just stories not history you people are so closed minded it's scary. Here is one example of a mistranslation. The crossing of the Red sea never happened the bible actually says they crossed the sea of reeds. When that part was translated it was assumed they meant the red sea. The marsh area the jews crossed ( by the way there is NO evidence that this story is even remotely true)
That area is 8 to 10 inches of water and at low tide is dry. When you say a LIE long enough it becomes the truth.

Workerbee if your "reed sea theory" is correct then that means God did an even greater mirracle by drowning thousands of egyptian soldiers and their charriots in 8-10inches of water..lol :D

Exodus 14vs 26-28
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back upon the Egyptians, on their chariots, and on their horsemen.” 27 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and when the morning appeared, the sea returned to its full depth, while the Egyptians were fleeing into it. So the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28 Then the waters returned and covered the chariots, the horsemen, and all the army of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them. Not so much as one of them remained.

[SkyGem]

Skygem you are correct that this thread took a 180 degree turn.

Yes, it has. This new subject matter has nothing to do with demons other than the ones who control infidels to write the kind of garbage that is designed to obfuscate the way the Bible is actually written.


(tey don't mean a literal drowning you need to educate yourself) That's why you should read from other sources instead of being a close-minded person.

That is a typical infidel's way of feeling, I'm sure. But the fact is that the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God and though you and your flock do not believe that it is does not change the meaning and information contained therein. Again, man's interpretation, mostly from un-Believers would have Christians believe that they have found the miraculous panacea to what they believe is "mistranslations". There are none. Christians stand by the Holy Bible 100% and therefore no amount of arguing is going to change GOD'S WORD. That's the way it is, like it or not.

To believe in Noah's ark ,a young earth, that is sad

Actually what is truly sad is to be God-less and believe that man is better than God and has all the answers as you believe.

Let me finish by saying there are no demons, only the ones are in people's minds so rachie doesn't have a thing to worry about. Back on topic
workerbee

Demons most certainly exist except to those who may be in legion with them. But afterall, "can satan cast out satan?" (MARK 3:23 KJV) Infidels have a one-track mind and try to espouse their gross inaccuracies in this forum and so many other places to try to sway Christian minds. It won't work, of course, no matter how hard you try to present your "case" that is full of holes. If you were with God and Believed in Him, He would show you the TRUTH to this matter by way of the Holy Spirit. Enough said.

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

A lot of the Bible are just stories not history you people are so closed minded it's scary.

You are so ignorant on the subject its scary. The Bible is a reliable historic document. Most of the historical events are confirmed by other non biblical writings. For example, the Ancient Egyptians wrote about the calamities that God sent to Pharaoh at his refusal to releace the Isrealits. It was even documented by the Egyptians that the rivers turned to blood. That is just one example of the Bible's Historicity. So before you emabarrase yourself I would do a little more search on the subject. :rolleyes:

[workerbee]

First off the drowning is a metaphor, possibly, sassy, it is not my reed theory it is written in the HEBREW BIBLE as reed never Red but you don't care about that. I know why you are calling me ignorant, it's because you know in the back of your mind I have good points and it frightens you. Now let's not disrepect this forum or this thread let's get back on topic. They are no demons or angels think about it why would an angel need wings it is not aerodynamically sound. It is symbolism only. Please stay on topic PM me if you want to talk of other things.

workerbee

[tawnynkids]

Can I just say for those who do believe in the Bible, the reason the study proving prayer doesn't work "proved it" is that it clearly says in the Bible "Do not test the Lord"? Even Jesus would not command something to watch God perform! He knew better than that.

[workerbee]

It is just the way you look at it. Trying to help someone is not testing god, the study was done to answer the question once and for all. Earlier studies were flawed. That was why the study was made. The other reason was if prayer is true it would help people and doctors would incorporate it in treating patients. Again just christian excuses for God not doing a thing. I don't pretend to have all of the answers but come on. Read my thread on taking the bible literally.


P.s the reed thing and my other suggestions are from bibical scholars
workerbee

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

First off the drowning is a metaphor, possibly, sassy, it is not my reed theory it is written in the HEBREW BIBLE as reed never Red but you don't care about that.

Workerbee, your "reed sea" conspiracy theory falls apart right there Because the Hebrew does not say the reed sea. This is what the encyclopidia says about your theory.

Wikipedia Says

"It has been argued that the Hebrew name that has been translated as "The Red Sea" (Yam Suph) may not refer to the Red Sea, but rather to a "Sea of Reeds" (Yam Suphim), despite the fact that later books of the Bible refer to the Red Sea port of Aqaba as being located on Yam Suph.

The theory that Yam Suph was a small, marshy body of swampwater to the north of the Red Sea allows for a non-supernatural interpretation of the crossing. It does not, however, explain the subsequent drowning of several thousand soldiers in the same body of water."

I know why you are calling me ignorant, it's because you know in the back of your mind I have good points and it frightens you

I am not saying you are ignorant in general. I am just saying you seem very ignorant in this particular subject matter. Clearly you need to do a little more reading and research before you make statements that make you look ignorant and uninformed.

Now let's not disrepect this forum or this thread let's get back on topic. They are no demons or angels think about it why would an angel need wings it is not aerodynamically sound. It is symbolism only. Please stay on topic PM me if you want to talk of other things.

I was just responding to your reed theory, so you need to take your own advice and stop bringing up things that have nothing to do with the subject of the discussion.

[sassyT]

It is just the way you look at it. trying to help someone is not testing god, the study was done to answer the question once and for all. earlier studies were flawed. that was why the study was made. the other reason was if prayer is true it would help people and doctors would incorporate it in treating patients. Again just christian excuses for God not doing a thing. I don't pretend to have all of the answers but come on. read my thread on taking the bible literally.


P.s the reed thing and my other suggestions are from bibical scholars
workerbee

Here is an independent study done on prayer which concluded that God does answer prayer. I can be a witness to that because God has answered all my prayers.

Scientific Evidence for Answered Prayer