Is the trinity a Bible teaching or was it invented by man?
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Is the trinity a Bible teaching or was it invented by man?
>Moved to Discussion Board<
Do you really want to know what others believe and have a discussion, or do you just want to preach what you believe and post links to coorborate your beliefs?
Plus, we already danced to this tune here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...me-833136.html
Sure. Tell what your opinion is...
Ha, ha. "Opinion."Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
How about you tell us your opinion first, and we'll go from there.
I couldn't find the trinity doctrine in the Bible. The doctrine is in various church doctrines and they are many variations of it. I noticed people in the same church often differ from one another, but none could point to a single scripture that contained the doctrine they believe in... mostly, most pointed to their church doctrine rather than the Bible... for their beliefs.
Genesis 1:26 (NIV)
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...."
2 Corinthians 13:14(NIV)
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
There are numerous Bible references that Christians point to in support of their belief. For someone so Bible-oriented, I find it hard to believe you are unaware of them. You may not believe them, but you are surely aware of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
For starters, Wondergirl has posted one.
So where is the scripture that explains the trinity doctrine of three separate persons making up one God?
Are you a literalist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
Please Google.
How about we stick to Scripture? Here's a scripture that is contradictory against the trinity which is not found in scripture.
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5)
One God the Father
One Lord Jesus Christ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0BZdAMl8mE
I totally agree, One God, One Lord, One Spirit. Do you understand what the Trinity is? I'm guessing you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
I'm in agreement with the scripture but not with the man-made doctrine. Matter of fact the scripture for salvation is rather simple. When I go to a door I share this scripture. Most slam the door in my face with a few cuss words, all the time claiming to be Christians. But would a true Christian act in such a distasteful manner? Apply (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
"For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)
Christians follow Christ and his teachings.
Trinitarians follow the trinity and its' teachings.
"No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24) This is known as a Bible Principle. A statement of truth that doesn't change with the passing of time or circumstance. You can apply this Bible Principle to money, a job, or man-made traditions.
And that doctrine is what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
Revert back to the question on the Forum. Is it or not? For example many trinitarians try to use Jesus own words to support the trinity. "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) Trinitarians are literalists claiming this is Literal. The trinity dogma doesn't state that at all. OK... if it's literal then let's apply it the trinity. According to the trinity, three separate persons make up one God. It's like a three legged stool. If Jesus and his Father are one, you just took one leg away and a tumbling down comes the trinity, the stool can't stand.
So is Jesus speaking literally or figurative? "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) IF a couple gets married, the two become One Flesh. Literal or FIGURATIVE?
When speaking to his Father in prayer, Jesus included his followers with the same language. "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:3) Again, literal or figurative?
A football team can act as one, can they not? Act one in PURPOSE, it's not LITERAL...
Now, please answer my question: What do YOU think is the doctrine of the Trinity?
You seem to be more of a Modalist than a trinitarian. Even though Baptists proclaim to be trinitarians they tend to push Sabellianism, modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism.
God is like an egg, three parts or God is like water, three modes. None of these teachings are Biblical. God has different natures, blah, blah blah... None are scriptural and give a false witness. Basically, the trinity concept is (three in one) which again is Absent from scripture. The Jews did not worship a three in one God, the prophets of old never worshipped a three in one God, nor did Jesus worship a three in one God. Some even claim three Heads or three Almighty Gods.
The trinity doctrine opposes the teachings of Jesus Christ. None of them state that God is a Spirit, but Jesus does. (John 4:24)
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teaching...tions/trinity/
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/m...-is-a-trinity/
Please don't preach at me or tell me what I believe. And please answer my question: What is YOUR definition of the Trinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
It's a three in one concept that gives no names in it. It's a generic formula taken from paganism. There is only one scripture that states a three in one concept and it is not Christian.
"And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet." (Rev 16:13)
WHat are they doing? "They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev 16:14)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsRm...506D29&index=4
That's what you believe? If so, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
Can you state what mainstream Christianity believes?
Christians don't believe in the trinity because it is an anti-christian doctrine. However, there are about 2 Billion members of Christendom that do, these religions left the teaching of the apostles and got their start towards the end of the first century.
"Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)
"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)
The trinity doctrine, or any trinity doctrine, denies that Jesus is the Christ by omission. It also denies the Christ as coming in the flesh. "This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God." (1 John 4:2-3)
It doesn't matter which trinity doctrine you use or believe in, because none of them acknowledge Jesus in their official doctrines.
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)
"Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God." (2 John 8-9)
Wow! you'd better do some studying!
Please read the Nicene Creed along the way.
Trinitarians and modalists?
SNORE!!!! It's 7 am and I'm half asleep already...
What is your point with all of these discussions? Oh, and BTW, Christians do believe in the trinity, maybe you need to expand your religious horizons.
The Roman Empire is not Christian. SInce Modalism was the apostate teaching of the day, "Three personas make up one Essence" the council got apostates to form a creed at Constantine's request. Constantine was a Pagan Roman Ruler and his goal was to gather pagans and christians together into a Universal Religion. (Catholicism)
Modalism with a few tweaks became known as the trinity. Of course this teaching did not come from the Bible but adopted from Paganism. Christians who stuck to following Christ and the teaching of the Apostles were branded heretics and tortured, slaughtered, and burned alive which included children. Christendom was Born. To help Christendom grow, Pagan Holy Days were added, adjusted, and renamed.
Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honour of the god Saturn. Since the evergreen tree was green all year round it became the pagan symbol for everlasting or eternal. They represented their false god with a star or an angel to place it to the most northern part of the tree. "For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" (Isaiah 14:13 KJV) But how could Christendom get people to worship this false god without them knowing it? By placing gifts at the bottom of the tree with promises of great riches. Today, parents and children alike are more than willing to kneel before the tree in hopes of reaping materialism. An Act of Greed.
"Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
"The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season)." http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...eRealStory.htm
Eastre' is a pagan festival with bunny rabbits and eggs that represent fertility in Pagan Religions. https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...agan-symbolism
The Romans and Greeks were people of symbols and imagination (As well as the Sciences, and Arts), and the dominant force in that part of the world during those times. I love the way instead of quoting scripture as fact, you finally get to the history, and the people that shaped it. Now we have a debate, and discussion instead of an online bible study lecture. It's important to note though that your use of "pagan" and obvious disdain of those non Christian peoples and their customs and traditions, is one of the attitudes that almost destroyed the religion in the first place. Not saying those other folks were any better in their own very strict and narrow approach to their religion, but I think the point that such human behavior from both the heathen and enlightened is too similar to be totally dismissed.
I find it fascinating though that the divide between the Catholics and non-Catholics is still profound if not as bloody, and how that divide shaped the Europe (And much of the known world) we now know. Constantine made Christianity legit in some regions even if he did add some "pagan" parts to it. Hard for some to accept, but what if he had not made it so palatable to non Christians?
Pagans had nothing to lose, many worshiped a whole host of deities. Even Catholics worship a triad of gods called the trinity. They have no issue with bowing down or kissing idols of wood or stone.
Have you ever heard of the ten commandments? I think they break all of them...
"I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me."
You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth
You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion
You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes up His name in a worthless way.
How about this one from Jesus? "Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One." (Matthew 23:9)
The Catholic Priest told me I didn't have to listen to Jesus, because that Catholic Church is now about tradition. I'm no longer a Catholic....
"Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this." (Mark 7:13) Another teaching of Jesus Christ.
Take Care.
You don't understand the Trinity. It is a triad of PERSONS, not GODS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Rando
You are already breaking the commandment against bearing false witness.Quote:
Have you ever heard of the ten commandments? I think they break all of them...
Note - other gods - the author of the Commandments believed there was more than one god.Quote:
"I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me."
This refers to a carved image of one of those other gods. It does NOT refer, say, to the statue of Willie Mays in front of the baseball stadium in San Francisco.Quote:
You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth
"them" "serve them" - again, those other gods. Context. Context. Context.Quote:
You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion
This is a good place to remind you of dwashbur explanation of the origin of your "Jehovah".Quote:
You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes up His name in a worthless way.
Do you think Jesus did not call Joseph his father? Or that Jesus was telling the billions of people on earth not to call their father father? This is part of your problem - when you want literal, it's literal. When you DON'T want literal, it's allegorical or whatever you want. That's called cherry-picking.Quote:
How about this one from Jesus? "Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One." (Matthew 23:9)
The Catholic Church, no doubt, was glad to see you go.Quote:
The Catholic Priest told me I didn't have to listen to Jesus, because that Catholic Church is now about tradition. I'm no longer a Catholic....
This hardly refers to a Church Mark never heard of and was not yet in existence.Quote:
"Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this." (Mark 7:13) Another teaching of Jesus Christ.
Et tu.Quote:
Take Care.
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