I know what "Church" is not. Church is not the unique differences between the various Christian religions deemed inconsequential; “based on incorrect theological perspectives and is characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another.’“ Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris mission, December 7, 1990. It would seem to me that the Church of Jesus Christ cannot participate in any such definition; primarily because Divine Truth is not an amalgamation of partial Divine Truths. Since faith resides in the intellect, this type of faith is "one's own invention and milieu" and will not "bring us into the company of believers" (Pope Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic theology: building stones for a fundamental theology, 1987) Thus, the Church is not a company of like minded believers joined together by good vibes of Christ's Divinity and Christ's humanity.


If we hold that God's word is immutable, never changing, and incorruptible; we find "God is Truth" (Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas). From which we can deduce there is only one True Word. We can further conclude if there is One Devine Truth of Christ gave His authority to teach divinely to One organ. If there is only One divinely taught Truth would you agree there can only be one Divine College that teaches infallibly as one discipline as an irreformable Truth. Only the Divine can receive and bind others to an immutable Truth with the authority to oblige.

What, given the above, is that divine authority that received the commission to teach an irreformable Truth? What is that Church?


JoeT

Church is "where two or three gather together in my name" (Matt. 18:20).

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Church is "where two or three gather together in my name" (Matt. 18:20).

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This verse has two equally valid parts. To gather the full truth accepting one part means we must also accept the other. Accept that the two or three gathered in name and authority of Christ then the gathered are in the unicity of the ‘Church’. That one assembly united in Christ, the living Truth, i.e. the Body of Christ which is ‘Church’. Within the context of the Gospel this verse conveys Christ’s command and caution that we pray in the great unanimity He is to obtain the majesty of God the gathered pray for - even though there be only two or three. Even these small numbers of His members of Church can effect “anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.” (Cf. Cyprian of Carthage, On the Unity of the Church, Treatise 1, 12)


As this gathering are already 'Church', you’ve may have explained how 'Church' works in prayer - in a small way, but you haven’t explained what is ‘Church’.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

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This doesn't define any 'Church' I know of, it seems more like a social club. Not that I have anything against the Optimist Club, but this sounds more like their creed, touching lives optimistically for the better.

JoeT

You are right, it only defines my church. I don't go to it but it, goes where ever I go every day not just on Sunday. I have visited many houses of worship, not just a church.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

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I agree. We have been blessed by God and are therefore to be a blessing to others. Church happens every day, everywhere when we see God in another's face and connect with that person with unconditional love.

Like my favorite pastor used to say, "Church begins when you leave the building."

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You are right, it only defines my church. I don't go to it but it, goes where ever I go every day not just on Sunday. I have visited many houses of worship, not just a church.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I agree. We have been blessed by God and are therefore to be a blessing to others. Church happens every day, everywhere when we see God in another's face and connect with that person with unconditional love.

Like my favorite pastor used to say, "Church begins when you leave the building."

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Am I to understand that each, talaniman, Wondergirl and other similar 'gatherings' are individual Bodies of Christ? (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:27). How many different 'One Body of Christ(s)' are there? Are they individual and different 'Truths' as well? If not why are they not one and the same Church?

It seems odd, there is a suggestion that there are 'multiple' bodies of Christ. I thought we were called into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13) and One body (Ephesians 4:4). How is one "joined to the Lord, is one spirit" (1 Corinthians 6:17) and yet separate and apart in the spirit, in the body of faith and in knowledge?

JoeT

Are you saying only one church body/building/congregation is legit? I am confused as to your statement.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Am I to understand that each, talaniman, Wondergirl and other similar 'gatherings' are individual Bodies of Christ?

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There is only one "gathering," one Truth, one Church. The Kingdom of God -- God's Church -- is within us when we love Him and reach out to share His love with and minister to others. We are called and sanctified by the Holy Spirit to be this Church, to be a type of Christ to others.

Joe,

If you continue to use only Roman Catholic source material, logic dictates that the only answer is the Roman Catholic Church.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Areyou saying only one church body/building/congregation is legit? I am confusedas to your statement.

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I've been accused of being confusing at times - probably with some justification.

Shouldn't there only be 'One Body of Christ' as St. Paul described Church? He speaks of the Church as One Body and that her members parts are in "one spirit, with one mind laboring together for the faith of the gospel". (Philippians 1:27). In my estimation the Church the members might have diverse graces but all proclaim the very SAME Lord (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:4). It seems to me that a cacophony of different 'Churches' do not meet the same definition as Scripture, primarily because commissioned to teach a divine Truth. And to state the obvious, different Churches teach different 'truths', thus precluding all but one as 'Church'.

I had asked 'What is Church' wondering what answer I might get.

JoeT

So pick one and enjoy it. :D

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

Joe,

If you continue to use only Roman Catholic source material, logic dictates that the only answer is the Roman Catholic Church.

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It certainly is hoped to conclude with only ONE Church.

Whether Scripture 'Roman Catholic' is not the topic. However, I would agree that it is a special part of her Sacred Tradition. Scripture is the majority of the material I've used thus far. A quote from Pope John Paul II was used but only to show the fallacy of multiple 'Churches'.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

It certainly is hoped to conclude with only ONE Church.

Whether Scripture 'Roman Catholic' is not the topic. However, I would agree that it is a special part of her Sacred Tradition. Scripture is the majority of the material I've used thus far. A quote from Pope John Paul II was used but only to show the fallacy of multiple 'Churches'.

JoeT

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I count two Popes, a Cardinal, and a Canonized Pope as well as the Bible vereses.

I guess humans are not of the same mind concerning their church. That's not at all surprising as humans seldom are on the same page about anything. The best we can get is like minds and that's not written in stone either.

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

I count two Popes, a Cardinal, and a Canonized Pope as well as the Bible vereses.

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If we want to be punctilious lets get it right. Blessed Pope John XXIII and Blessed Pope John Paul II are to be canonized as Saints on April 27, 2014. Of the two I only mentioned John Paul II. Technically, only two Popes were mentioned, one of which is blessed (not yet canonized) and St. Thomas Aquinas who is canonized a Saint but wasn't a Cardinal.

St. Thomas Aquinas was so devoted to his works he turned down offers to be made bishop or abbot. In the last days of his life he is said to have had a vision or an epiphany of sorts. Josef Pieper writes in The Silence of St. Thomas of St. Thomas Aquinas’ last days, A friend asked why he didn’t continue to write. After the third urging of his friend, St. Thomas Aquinas said, “All that I have hitherto written seems to me nothing but straw . . . compared to what I have seen and has been revealed to me" (Pieper, PP. 39-40). G.K Chesterton also wrote of St. Thomas Aquinas’ mystic like love of divine wisdom,

Then he could be compared with other saints or theologians, as mystic rather than dogmatic. For he was, like a sensible man, a mystic in private and a philosopher in public. He had “religious experience” all right; but he did not, in the modern manner, ask other people to reason from his experience. He only asked them to reason from their own experience. His experiences included well-attested cases of levitation in ecstasy; and the Blessed Virgin appeared to him, comforting him with the welcome news that he would never be a Bishop G.K. Chesterton, The Spectator, Feb. 27, 1932

And we almost missed Cyprian of Carthage, he is indeed a martyred Saint and a bishop. And then there was five New Testament verses from St. Paul.

I think it was a fairly even mix.

JoeT

Why would you put ANY church between yourself and the god that you understand and have a personal relationship with?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Why would you put ANY church between yourself and the god that you understand and have a personalrelationship with?

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I wouldn't put a Church between myself and God. However, the Church is the means and opportunity to incorporate ourselves into the Body of Christ and His Spirit. She offers themeans for salvation through the sacraments. The Church is thought of as being like a sacrament, a visible sign of communion and union with God and men. Parishioners are thought of as the member-parts of the Body of Christ visibly joined in one structure. The Church is the visible plan to become one people "built up into one temple of Holy Spirit". (Cf. CCC 775 - CCC 776)

If I ran foot races I wouldn't want any structure obstructing a direct path between me and my goal; except of course for bridges that allow the runner to pass over dark waters. The Church is like that bridge over the dark waters of spiritual death.

JoeT

Nice answer, never looked at it as a bridge. I just liked going to different congregations.

It is my opinion the Church is a Divine institution that is commissioned to teach God's Divine Truth. As Truth is absolute immutable, and irreformable there can only be one “true” confessed faith, and only one tur Church. Given any number Churches each with one or more confesions of faith it is irrefutable that only one can be 'TRUE' or they are all wrong and we can conclude there is no truth at all, thus no God. Christ affirmed only one "fold and one shepherd." [Cf. Matthew 12:25, John 10:16, John 17:21-22, Philippians 2:2, etc. etc.].


It would seem to me that any true Church, one built on an absolute truth, must be without error. “That he [Christ] might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. [Ephesians 5:27]


We the one true Church was commissioned by Christ and built on the Apostles along with their successors. “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 16:18]. Logically it would not bear the name of its human founder.

When there is disagreement in the Church it is resolved within the Church and becomes binding on all of Christ’s faithful. “And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” [Matthew 18:17]

The Church is prefigured in the Old Testament described as existing in the beginning before the law, lit by Scripture having the power of a two edged sword, earthly and spiritual. Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28. Where in the Old Testament do we find a prefigured Church whose founder is not Theandric?


One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? [Canticles 6:8-9] How are 'many Churches', equally one, each the bride of Christ simultaneously and equally true?


The Church is "the Body of Christ" with Christ as her head, “but I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” [1 Corinthians 11:3] Are there as many One God(s) as there are Churches? Some hold a Triune God, others a bi-une God, and still other others a monophysite god. From the early councils we are taught Christ is one person, one hypostasis, two natures

The True Church of Jesus Christ recognizes “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” [Ephesians 4:5] Many churches don’t hold to any of the sacraments, yet they are commanded for our defense.

But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defense. [Psalms 21:20]

The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified him, took his garments, (and they made four parts, to every soldier a part,) and also his coat. Now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said then one to another: Let us not cut it, but let us cast lots for it, whose it shall be; that the scripture might be fulfilled, saying: They have parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture they have cast lots. And the soldiers indeed did these things. [John 19:23-24] While the True Church is yet alive fulfilling its place in scripture, are the 'many churches' casting lots for what they think are remnants of Christ?

He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. [John 21:17]. Who is feeding you?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

only one can be 'TRUE' or they are all wrong and we can conclude there is no truth at all, thus no God.

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That's a huge leap.

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upon this rock [upon Myself] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 16:18].

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

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That's a huge leap.

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Given any one thing (or substance), how many different truths do you suspect there are? Likewise, given any one doctrine, how many divine True doctrines are there?

As a result of your answer, can we now conclude there are multiple truths in Matthew 16:18; the one uttered by Christ and along side the one in which you inject your own subjectivity?

JoeT

Okay, the question is "What is church".

There is no right or wrong in church, or belief. It's not a be all end all, this is it or there's nothing else. There are millions of churches, hundreds of different beliefs and even those that have the same beliefs, don't agree on everything in that specific "belief" system.

Bottom line, Church is a building, an institution, a place where people of like minds gather. It's not an entity, it's not spiritual, it's just a building full of people that believe in the same thing. Church is nothing but a man made thing. Look in your bible. Did Jesus preach in a church? Did he pick who he'd bless, who he'd preach to? Nope. So what does your church really mean in the long run? It's just a building.

Belief is human based. If it were pure, the one and only, everyone one would agree on it. There would only be one church if that were the case, one belief, one way. The fact that there are so man different views on God and religion, so many different churches to support those beliefs, proves that this is all based on humans, and their beliefs, not "Gods".

No one religion is right. To say that your way is the only way, is taking the place of the very God you claim to worship. Until you're in his position you have no right to frown on other beliefs. You're not omnipotent, and never will be. So live your life, believe what you believe, go to the church of your choosing, and stop trying to prove that everyone else is wrong, because there's no proof to substantiate your beliefs, or anyone else's. Just live and let live!

Or to put it as my old pastor used to say: "Sunday is a meeting, the rest of the week is the service!"

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Originally Posted by Alty

Okay, the question is "What is church".

There is no right or wrong in church, or belief. It's not a be all end all, this is it or there's nothing else. There are millions of churches, hundreds of different beliefs and even those that have the same beliefs, don't agree on everything in that specific "belief" system.

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I'm a bit confused by your statement. What you're suggesting is that God's truth is not absolute. Rather it seems to be suggested that God's truth is subject to the will of men.

We know that the Holy Spirit does not contradict God's absolute Truth. How then would the Holy Spirit guide these 'individual, all equal in truth, churches by revealing something different to each individually?

Could we not say that God and Truth are convertible? If God exists (see Summa Prima Q,2,3). Then does not an absolute Truth exist? God is Immutable (see Summa Prima Q,9, 1). Then is not an absolute Truth immutable? God is Eternal. “Now God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” (see Summa Prima Q,10 2). Then is not Truth eternal? And we know that God is Spiritual (see Summa Prima Q,3,3 & 6). “…it follows that there is no accident in God.” Then is not Truth spiritual? So, when Christ says to go " Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world"; what is really meant is for each to teach a subjective "Truth" of all He commands?

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Bottom line, Church is a building, an institution, a place where people of like minds gather. It's not an entity, it's not spiritual, it's just a building full of people that believe in the same thing. Church is nothing but a man made thing. Look in your bible. Did Jesus preach in a church? Did he pick who he'd bless, who he'd preach to? Nope. So what does your church really mean in the long run? It's just a building.

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Church is indeed an institution of the Kingdom of God commissioned to teach His divine 'Truth' and to minister to the sacraments which are the means of salvation. The first of which is baptism, which is like entering the door of the Kingdom; you might say engrafted onto the vine. Those believing and entering the doorway through baptism "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). It seems rather emphatic to me.

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Belief is human based. If it were pure, the one and only, everyone one would agree on it. There would only be one church if that were the case, one belief, one way. The fact that there are so man different views on God and religion, so many different churches to support those beliefs, proves that this is all based on humans, and their beliefs, not "Gods".

No one religion is right. To say that your way is the only way, is taking the place of the very God you claim to worship. Until you're in his position you have no right to frown on other beliefs. You're not omnipotent, and never will be. So live your life, believe what you believe, go to the church of your choosing, and stop trying to prove that everyone else is wrong, because there's no proof to substantiate your beliefs, or anyone else's. Just live and let live!

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Speaking of faith, we have a Scriptural model; "faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." (Hebrews 11:1). As you alluded, faith is essentially to 'know'. Truth functions within the intellect acting in the processes of knowing, weighing and dissecting both the essence and the attributes of any supposition. And since God and Truth are convertible then we can also say a virtuous faith is to know Truth as well as to know the one God.

The alternative offered seems to be teaching a divine word fallibly which can only lead to chaos of doctrine; A chaotic body of knowledge producing a multitude of gods. Is this acceptable?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Riot

Or to put it as my old pastor used to say: "Sunday is a meeting, the rest of the week is the service!"

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Then is it proposed that 'Church' is "Sunday go to meeting"? I would suggest 'Church' is much more than that. I would suggest that 'Church' is the source of your salvation through the sacraments.

JoeT

The Truth is love God and show love to others. If you want to speak in Biblical terms, this is the fulfilling of the OT Law and the sum of the NT Gospel message.

Some don't need sacraments to have Good Orderly Direction, and be good humans. Some do. What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The Truth is love God and show love to others. If you want to speak in Biblical terms, this is the fulfilling of the OT Law and the sum of the NT Gospel message.

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Isn't that a Beatles song, "All you need is love"? Of what use is Church if, as the gospel song goes, "all you need is love"? What about the sacraments?

But, the real Gospel says we gain, "the manifold wisdom ofGod may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church" [Ephesians 3:10].

JoeT

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Some don't need sacraments to have Good Orderly Direction, and be good humans. Some do. What's the difference?

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The difference is the same between a desire and a command; Christ said "do this". We can claim to be His 'friend', we can claim Him as Lord, yet when He commands we say "I know better because I have no need"?

Sacraments are the visible signs of an inward grace received ordained by Christ for our salvation. They are "from the foundations of the world men have caught sight of his invisible nature, his eternal power and his divineness, as they are known through his creatures." [Romans 1:20]

JoeT

the only question is what he meant when he said do this. What we have today in many places is not what he meant, we have a habit of dissecting scripture rather than taking it as a whole the sacriments are a case in point

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Originally Posted by paraclete

the only question is what he meant when he said do this. What we have today in many places is not what he meant, we have a habit of dissecting scripture rather than taking it as a whole the sacraments are a case in point

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Then you apply symbol where others might apply substance?

JoeT

Not really, I take the simpliest intrepretation and don't see the purpose of augmentation into cerimony, we have not taken the scriputure as a whole

Would not the sacraments apply just to the church that employees them? Indeed does not every church have their own unique and accepted ways of the truth? Or is your premise that everybody does it wrong because they do it differently?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Then you apply symbol where others might apply substance?

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The sacraments, prayers, hymns, choirs, sermons, the liturgy, genuflecting, and other rituals are simply bridges toward knowing, experiencing, and loving God and then as inspiration for extending His love to each other.

Church is Community. The substance is Love.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Not really, I take the simpliest intrepretation and don't see the purpose of augmentation into cerimony, we have not taken the scriputure as a whole

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That is precisely what ceremony is, the simplest of worship, we see this in the whole of Scripture, both in the Old and New Testament. The perfection of communal prayer. It is the worship of God as a ‘whole’ person, body and soul; similarly the entire body of the Church as one. The substance of the soul is said to lie somewhere between the supernatural and the natural world. It animates the natural body and conducts the supernatural through itself into the body; the ‘fires’ of God illuminating the intellect, a quickening. The body and soul make up the whole person, just as our savior is both body and spirit who honored the Father as a Person. As His brothers we too express our devotion through the exterior express of ceremony to perfect body and soul (whole person) in worship.


Ceremony is part of the human nature, just as we ‘honor’ our supreme leader in ceremony, we give the latria or worship justly due God through ceremony. It perfects our powers of prayer and strengthening our worthiness to receive the graces contained in the Sacraments. It’s not augmentation it is a part of humanity.


JoeT

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The sacraments, prayers, hymns, choirs, sermons, the liturgy, genuflecting, and other rituals are simply bridges toward knowing, experiencing, and loving God and then as inspiration for extending His love to each other.

Church is Community. The substance is Love.

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Yes, the substance forming faith is charity, however the grace that forms charities received in sacraments are a reality and are far from symbolic or metaphoric bridges. And I would not suggest that liturgy and prayer are symbols.

JoeT

I think anything that humans do in greater numbers and in unison creates some awesome energy.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, there is a corporate annointing that comes when faith is applied in greater numbers, but that faith must be directed, must be specific to be effective, rote prayers rob power from the application of faith