I am looking for reasons and facts for why god doesn't exist, or why people shouldn't believe in god... And how religion is all made up, can anyone help me out please?
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I am looking for reasons and facts for why god doesn't exist, or why people shouldn't believe in god... And how religion is all made up, can anyone help me out please?
Why does an Atheist need to prove that god doesn't exist, surely it is up to the person believing to prove that he, she or it does..
Belief is NOT proof of something and should not be confused in that manner.
As for religion, most are based on unprovable faith and belief in a supreme being(s).
Not sure how much info you're looking for but "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins is an interesting read on this very subject.
Unbelief is endemic today but as it was written the last days people will be lovers of themselves, guess who said that
Why do you need to Prove anything, if you don't believe, then you don't
Reality is faith is a gift, a gift we are all entitled to receive but some reject this
If there is no God life isn't worth it. I just lost my Dad from a massive stroke, while my mother is recovering from a heart attack and open heart surgery. My life has been changed forever. If this is all there is, it isn't worth the trouble. But I believe God does exist and He himself says we should be able to look at creation and know it.
I don't have enough faith to believe that order came out of disorder. A big bang and everything fell into place. Please. Even the sun is in the proper place... not a little closer or a touch further because if it were, we wouldn't be here. No, I don't have enough faith to believe we are just happenstance. I'm blown away by those who believe that.
Millions of people happily live their lives with no knowledge or belief in any god - in fact it's the default position.
It isn't. Take a planetary physics course and you'll know why. In fact there may be other inhabited worlds because the physics line up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
If one does not believe that ANYTHING exists, then it doesn't exist as far as that person is concerned. As far as not believing the God does not exist, that is simply a person choice and opinion. With that said, that person DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to disallow anyone who DOES believe to not show their feelings towards God. If the Atheist does not want anything referring to God to be publicly displayed, then where are the rights of those that do believe in being able to display what they believe in?
athiests would deny us freedom of speech, freedom of expression, just because they are of a different opinion. Once we would have done the same to them but we are more enlightened now. Reality is God doesn't want us to defend his existence, since the evidence is in plain sight but the athiests are blind,
Thing is if we are wrong we have believed a lie, if they are wrong they have eternity to experience the truth of their error
Not at all. On this forum there's a whole list of Religion boards, no one is denying you your freedom of speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Ah yes. Pascal's Wager: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Personally I don't live my life based on hedging a bet, but that's just me. :-)
I am a believer in a higher power. I do not know if it is God or not. You say the evidence the God truly does exist is in plain sight. Where?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Look around you, everything is unique, no two plants, animals, humans are exactly alike, abundance and perfusion. This cannot have evolved by its own accord. We have six thousand years of recorded history, where were we for millennia? How did we suddenly become intelligent? Everything reproduces according to its kind, there is order. Evolution doesn't make sense and besides if you take the time to seek God according to his ways he will reveal himself to youQuote:
Originally Posted by Handyman2007
Evolution is a proven science. Creationism is a theory. There is a higher power. I agree with that but I believe it is the Human spirit not something"up in the sky". Your thoughts and beliefs are not your own. They are a culmination of ideas that you have been taught and you have not allowed yourself your own human-ness. Think for yourself FIRST, Be a Human,, you can't be spiritual until you can be human.
No Evolution is far from a proven science as to how different types of animals evolved. It can not show how a bear and a bat all came from the same animal before. In fact it is almost laughable to even try to say it seriously. Yes things within its own type will change, a rose will become a better rose or a tree will become a greater type of tree, but a tree did not become a fish, and so on.
If evolution is proven how come no one can tell me where I came from. Where did my spirit come from? The human spirit is not up in the sky it is here in me right now but so also is the spirit of God. My thoughts and my beliefs are the sum of what I have learned, what I have experienced, what I know to be true, not some Darwinian nightmare. You want a little each way, but in fact you can't have it both ways, if evolution then where did God come from, when did he evolve? If creation then God is also explained because he said he did it, spoke it into beingQuote:
Originally Posted by Handyman2007
And that leads us to the question,, "Did God Create Man or Did Man Create God"?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I believe the latter is true.
The only thing that matters are facts, and sometimes instead of admitting we don't know, we fill in the gaps with whatever sounds best to us. Some of us even refuse to throw off the opinions, and traditions we are taught, so we repeat it, and even start believing in it, and call it faith.
People have died in the history of man over what they believe or been taught, and that's a real waste in my view, since we all KNOW we are right, but the only way to prove it is to make someone wrong. So if you don't believe in science, okay cool believe what you want. But because I do, and reject what you believe, that should be cool too. How come its NOT?
The sad part is, no body can stand that they might be wrong, misguided, or mistaken. They rather believe they are right. I will admit, that all I know is here I am, and here you are, and the world is what it is, so we deal with it to the best of our human ability.
I promise I won't think you a fool for what you believe, but I do reserve the right to think you an idiot by what you do. And I respectfully submit to all you believers, that you are misinterpreting the data. Therefore flawing the facts. That happens so before we start that war over who and what's right, maybe we should review the data.
I'm more concerned about the note of agony in the question. Please tell us, why is deciding about a god and religion so urgent and upsetting? For many people it's a lifelong quest, or at least question. Are you fighting with parents or someone close to you about the subject? If not, then just let it be part of your life, constantly wondering. Belief in God is all about faith, because there is no 'proof' (despite the people who like to think that the just-right sun and the plants we eat and air we breathe were made for humans).
For many in the modern world God is convenient - a way to gather people to do good deeds, a congregation to comfort others, a place to turn when tragedy happens and life loses meaning. A little different from the ancient times when God was thunder and lightening and rain for crops. But not that different.
Each person has to think, listen, read, watch, and decide for him or herself.
What better way to enforce law and make people behave than inventing an all powerful being that will strike them down if they are "naughty".
These days we just have police officers, but religion still hangs around too.
What better way to have authority, and power than say you are doing as your god directs you.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazamataz
Or the devil made me do it. Or contraceptives for women are against the church, but viagra is cool. Don't get me wrong, believe what you want, we are free to do that, and I can admit I have been wrong before. But there is something wrong when somebody says they are always right, so YOU must be wrong.
But it's not the God who is saying that. It's ill-informed people who are making up stuff (and badly interpreting the Bible) to use as a cudgel on those they want to control.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazamataz
+1 for "cudgel" - I had to look it up. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Facts you are not going to get. Because the facts do not exist. Religion is based on faith, not facts. However, different people can give you myriad reasons they believe one way or the other. Ultimately it is up to you do decide what makes sense to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by confusedchild8
Religion is one of the most discussed topics around. There are several discussion on this site that you can choose from.
We might be able to help you better if you explain what is behind your question and what is bothering you about religion.
Oh please where do you get that garbage? Atheists are no more against freedom of speech and freedom of expression then any other christian, muslim, jew, buddhist or whatever. If you claim the right to believe what you wish to believe that why shouldn't atheists have that same right? In fact, atheists are MORE inclined to support those freedoms because they have arrived at their beliefs based more on logic and reason rather than faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If anyone is blind, it is those who blindly believe in the word of the bible as specific and accurate. And who deny scientific facts when they challenge those beliefs.
I find it almost amusing that you spout such garbage about atheists and then talk about "we" being more enlightened. Who is this we, by the way. And how can you claim enlightenment when you spout totally specious accusations like you did?
No I can't help you with that because you are approaching your problem from the wrong direction. A person who had this difficulty was Josh Mc dowell, he did a comprehensive study attempting to prove God doesn't exist and set it down in books called Evidence that demands a verdict. Ultimately he became a believer because the evidence points to the existence of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by confusedchild8
As to religion being made up, well that is quite possible, because religion and belief in God are actually two different questions. Religion is man's attempt to deal with the reality that God does exist, has standards he expects us to comply with and our own inadequacy
Sorry, I have said this before and will say it again. There is NO factual proof that God exists. The existence of a God is based on faith not reality, not fact. I will not state that God does not exist, because just as no one can prove there is a god, no one can prove there isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If you believe in the reality of a God, that is your BELIEF and you are welcome to it. I am glad there are people that find comfort in that belief. But I will not stand by and have anyone tell me their belief is reality when there is no real proof. Just as you are entitled to believe what you want, so are others. Telling anyone their beliefs are wrong because you believe something different is very wrong In my opinion.
It is sad Scott that you perpetuate this illusion. I have set down a number of events in my book Revival ~ a different perspective which not only clearly demonstated to myself and others that God exists but also that he communicates with those who are open to listen. So what I state is fact and I'm sorry if you don't want to believe me but my testimony is the truth not based on anyone's experiences by my own. It is more that belief it is fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Nice opinion, and we are all glad you stand by it.
The only one perpetuating an illusion is you. I am 100% sure that you have demonstrated both to yourself an others that God exists. But all of your demonstrating is still based on faith. Faith that events stated in the Bible actually happened. Faith that the teachings of the Bible represent fact. Faith in extrapolated evidence that suggests the existence of a God. But it is all based on FAITH. Were you there to witness these events? Do you have any hard scientific facts that prove beyond a shadow of doubt of that existence. The answer is that you don't. Because such evidence does not exist! You said it yourself "a different perspective". That's not facts that's viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
So either you don't understand the difference between fact and belief or you are deluding yourself.
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure you have found enough evidence to convince yourself. I am not challenging that. That your belief is real to you is clear and I'm not challenging that. If you want to say to anyone that you are convinced that god exists and this is why, I have no problem with that. But when you tell me that God's existence is fact and that anyone who believes otherwise is wrong, I have a big problem with that. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong and that God does not exist. I am saying only that there is no factual, scientific, irrefutable evidence to prove his existence, just as there is no factual, scientific irrefutable evidence to prove that God doesn't exist.
But I don't expect you to accept this. I'm arguing from a rational fact based perspective. You are arguing from a perspective grounded in faith and your beliefs. We will never resolve this because it is not resolvable since we approach the issue from diametrically opposed positions.
But, as I said earlier, I will not stand by when I see someone make a statement of fact when no fact exists.
You don't get it Scott the events I describe in my book I was there for, not some extrapolation of Scripture although it clearly lines up with Scripture but actual events, happening to actual people who are still alive to testify that it in fact did happen. Did I go around asking God to mainfest himself to me, no I didn't, but he chose to do so and it certainly strengthened my faith. There is a whole world out there you have no idea about because your mind is closed.
Do you know why there is not evidence to support your ideas that God does not exist, because his existence is proven over and over to those who choose to take him at his word. You want to take him into a laboratory and stick needles into him perhaps cut him open to see what is inside, but the evidence is clear, it doesn't need you to do that. God is spirit, not flesh. His power is beyond anything you can imagine, but it is not like earthly power needing armies to enforce it
No YOU don't get it. Can you point me to ONE piece of scientific absolute proof that GOD exists? Not the testimony of witnesses,not an extrapolation of facts to support a belief, but a direct piece of evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You can't because such evidence does not exist. If it did exist then we wouldn't be having this discussion. You would have to write a book about it, there wouldn't be different religions in the world. Any evidence you have is based on your faith, it all comes down to your wanting to believe. But there is no direct, irrefutable scientific evidence.
He wasn't saying that God does not exist... only that we have to exercise tact and compassion when putting forth our view. I agree with you 100%... but faith is still the hope for things unseen. As a student of both science and theology I find it impossible to NOT believe in God, but I also remember that not everyone has seen it that way yet. My time at AMHD has taught me a lot about the presentation of my beliefs and "fact". I came on very forceful and rude and have learned since then that is not the best way to go about as a good and PRODUCTIVE witness. Look at every single paranormal post... it's the same problems over and over... with the same advice given over and over... with the same arguments over and over. I have experienced the authority and deliverance I talk of first hand. Of course it is different for those of us who have experienced this truth... but remember the countless others who have not yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hhelper,
I agree with you. I am saved by the blood of Jesus and believe so much in the Lord, his work on the cross and all he has done. I can't IMAGINE not having a relationship with him.. I feel like if anyone experienced what I have they would KNOW that they KNOW God exsists and loves us.
Having said ALL that it is clear from the Bible that it takes faith to believe that HE is and he is a rewarder to those that diligently seek him. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Sure God also says we should be able to look around and KNOW that he IS. But even if we lived during the time of Christ and we saw him raised from the dead with our own eyes there would still be those that wouldn't believe. Jesus rose Lazarus up from the dead and plenty of people watched it and left unbelieving. Why? Because even facts don't produce faith!! And God is clear.. it takes faith.
To Hauntinghelper and ClassyT;
Thank you. You have both expressed your views in a way that does not challenge other people's views, that expresses the strength of your views so that people can take notice. I am very happy for you both that your faith gives you comfort and strength.
Scott
It is a learning process for me... I use to try to challenge others and fight. I had to learn it is a turn off to others and I never once made someone stop and think about my views. I wanted to say what I had to say without listening to their views. A cycle that wasn't productive.
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